Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: lather on July 10, 2020, 03:47:25 PM
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On my way to Mt. Sterling KY for MSTA rally. Stopped for gas in Russleville KY. Pressed knob, it lit up I tunen to on but when I preessed start button nothing, display went blank. Walked to walmart got tools, voltmeter, sandpaper. Was going to clean up connections but immediately saw the negativce cable was broken at the teminal. Back to Walmart to buy a cable - automotive type but I made it fit. Nows I have power to kipass - screen lights up and dispaly indicates knob ready to turn but wont turn and thgen displays says immobiler error. Tried replacing fob battery as well as passive fob. same result or nothing at all New battery 13 volts.
Used my AMA roadsside assistance. Rep worked with me for 45 minutes to find a shop that said they would work on it. Towe3de to Lsot River Powersports in Bowling Green 32 mile away on AMA. Tech will look in the morning but I have little hope of a quick fix.
THis seems unlike anything I have seen here or other forum in 12 years.
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It's a poor earth or dud cell in battery problem.
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Did you try hitting it (switch)? That worked both times with me.
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i hit it many times.
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It's not a KIPASS issue.
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i hit it many times.
LOL
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I believe the immobilizer error message means it IS a KIPAAS issue.
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That's telling you the volts/battery/frame earths are/is faulty.
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That's telling you the volts/battery/frame earths are/is faulty.
Which is consistent with almost every other reported issue ever posted. Doesn't mean it can't be a dead computer, but that would be exceedingly rare.
The bike probably could have used some type of startup routine that measures critical voltages while placing a ramped up load, so it can stop and warn the user of a basic electrical problem (battery, terminals, grounds) before continuing the rest of the startup. I bet it could be done without delaying the startup much. The C14 seems particularly vulnerable to such issues- many of us have been stranded due to that exact issue (including me). I am curious, I think I will create a poll on it.
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The problem started with a faulty ground, a broken negative cable at the frame ground. But at that time there was no immobilzier message just a blank screen.
Now I have replaced the ground cable with a larger guage automotive one. It should now have a good ground. could the oversize cable be a problem?
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Now I have replaced the ground cable with a larger guage automotive one. It should now have a good ground. could the oversize cable be a problem?
I don't see how cable larger in diameter or current capacity (smaller gauge) could cause any issue- only if the connector(s) were not fitting well and making good contact.
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What does the dash's voltmeter read?
I've never heard of a cable breaking the way that you described. Any idea what caused that?
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What does the dash's voltmeter read?
I am not sure that will matter.
When the bike is not running, it indicates the unloaded voltage of the battery. With little/no load, it will not test the current-capacity of the cable nor the battery or connectors or anything else. If it reads low voltage with little/no load, that is almost certainly just a discharged battery.
When the bike IS running, the dash is only indicating the voltage of the charging system, which is always a higher voltage than the battery (or the battery would never charge).
This is why testing a battery really requires taking it out and throwing a huge load on it (like the starter would place). I am not sure how you can test the cables and battery in-place. You would need to know the split-second lowest voltage at the time the starter is running (and know what is or is not an acceptable reading).
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What does the dash's voltmeter read?
I've never heard of a cable breaking the way that you described. Any idea what caused that?
all I am seeing on the dash display is immobiler error a key symbol and then goes blank.
I istalled an oversize battery and it stretched and put stress on the cable at the termin al
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A multimeter on the battery terminals or the sae pigtail was showing 13+v. If it is a discharged batt the dealer should find that quickly.
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No point in hitting it- you do not have a stuck activation switch because the screen illuminates. When the switch is stuck, nothing on the bike will work, including the display.
From the symptoms given, it sounds like the solenoid shot- pin may not be activating or mechanically moving. If that is the case, you will also <not> hear the 'clink' or 'tink' noise when the display illuminates because that noise is the solenoid pulling the shot pin disconnecting from the ign. sw. barrel so that it can be turned. That said, it does not fit the circumstances: you had an electrical system failure (full power loss) due to a bad cable and suddenly this happens- I cannot help but think they are related.
At any rate, that is the cause of your problem: KiPass is activating just fine but the solenoid is not releasing the ign. switch barrel so that it can be rotated.
This is the first failure of this type that I have heard of- wish I was closer to take a look 'cause it is interesting (well, maybe not so much to you ;) )
Brian
On my way to Mt. Sterling KY for MSTA rally. Stopped for gas in Russleville KY. Pressed knob, it lit up I tunen to on but when I preessed start button nothing, display went blank. Walked to walmart got tools, voltmeter, sandpaper. Was going to clean up connections but immediately saw the negativce cable was broken at the teminal. Back to Walmart to buy a cable - automotive type but I made it fit. Nows I have power to kipass - screen lights up and dispaly indicates knob ready to turn but wont turn and thgen displays says immobiler error. Tried replacing fob battery as well as passive fob. same result or nothing at all New battery 13 volts.
Used my AMA roadsside assistance. Rep worked with me for 45 minutes to find a shop that said they would work on it. Towe3de to Lsot River Powersports in Bowling Green 32 mile away on AMA. Tech will look in the morning but I have little hope of a quick fix.
THis seems unlike anything I have seen here or other forum in 12 years.
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The bike is fixed. Big thanks to Lost River Powersports in Bowling Green and to AMA Rodaside assistance and Clays Auto Body and Towing. Lost River is a big multi brand dealer and they moved me ahead of 91 jobs to get me back on the road.
The problem was a bad positive connection that I missed. I admit I am a lousy wrench! But when I saw that broken negative I was sure that was the problem. Plus it was hot, i was dehydrated and distracted by a bunch of nice folks trying to help. I was in an awkward position in the only available shade between to fuel pump lanes. Thanks to all who gave advice. The service manager asked me before they went to work If I had researched online on a forum and I told him the consensus was a bad batt or bad connection.
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The problem was a bad positive connection that I missed.
Did they mention exactly which one/where?
Glad to hear it was a quick fix!
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It must have been the positive post connection. I asked if my negative cable replacement was the problem and he said no.
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It must have been the positive post connection. I asked if my negative cable replacement was the problem and he said no.
Hmm. So the negative wire broke (or degraded) at the battery, and possibly the positive, too? I think this would only happen if the cables had been unusually stressed. Was/is the battery the correct size, or was/is it physically smaller? If it were smaller, it could shift/move/vibrate and start breaking down the cable. Was the battery ever installed backwards (stretching the cables)? Did any battery ever corrode horribly, depositing chemicals on the connectors?
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All's well that ends well. :chugbeer:
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I had installed the slighly taller Yuasa and it stretched the negative cable. It created a stress point at the corner of the frame and the wire cracked right at the eye that bolts to the frame. Not at the battery. It came down to my bad installation job..
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:thumbs: At least you didn't lose your marbles.
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Glad it's fixed and it wasn't anything major. :chugbeer:
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Yeah, and at least there was another chance to blame KiPass.
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Brian
Glad it's fixed and it wasn't anything major. :chugbeer:
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I have admitted blame for this fiasco. But I blame KIPAAS as guilty of misleading error messages. If KIPAAS was any good at all it would say "Check Your Damn Batt Connections" instead of "Immobilzer Error"
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True enough Bob. Hey, remember the good ole' days when KiPass could maintain a 'discussion' (OK, an armored assault and repulsion ;D) all by itself? These days it has almost died as a topic of interest, kinda' like that no- good fuel injection and that awful electronic ignition of the 70's and 80's.
That said, I am still getting queries about the bypass and stories about sticking activation switches. Though these days I get a lot of inquiries about my bypass eliminating the need for a fob at all- now that the bike is an older model, they are turning up w/out any fobs as good deals to the unsuspecting. And still, after all these years, there is no quick 'n easy (read: cheap) way around a fob- free C-14; even the proposed work-arounds that <may> work are expensive. Though C-14's are now showing up in wrecking yards so at least there is some number of ECU's and fob combinations available at a reduced cost.
And much to my surprise, Kawasaki is listing both the ZX 14 and C-14 as 2021 models, at least in the US! Decent color on the new C-14's too....... hmmmmmmm.
Brian
I have admitted blame for this fiasco. But I blame KIPAAS as guilty of misleading error messages. If KIPAAS was any good at all it would say "Check Your Damn Batt Connections" instead of "Immobilzer Error"
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Hey Brian-- your bypass switch solution has saved me but I have not had the time to pull out the ignition switch to fix it yet. Since I'm using it constantly, what would you recommend as an actual switch I can install inline rather than removing/inserting the fuse? And how to install, ie which wires to use/cut?
Thanks,
Robert
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I have admitted blame for this fiasco. But I blame KIPAAS as guilty of misleading error messages. If KIPAAS was any good at all it would say "Check Your Damn Batt Connections" instead of "Immobilzer Error"
...or "Check your tire for 1/4" socket extension before it pokes through"
. (sorry Bob ;D .... well, a little bit sorry. :deadhorse:)
.....so you were stranded about 220 miles away did you get to continue on to the RRG Rally* :)..... or did you just turn around and head for home? :(
(* I looked through the photos (https://msta.smugmug.com/RegionalEvents-2/Kentucky-Rally/2020-Red-River-Gorge-Rally/i-BrVH5Kg) and didn't see any C14s, nor you.)
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A switch would replace the fuse, so use those two wires that currently (small pun intended) go to the fuse to install a switch.
I think it is a bad idea though; it is a failing switch that causes the problem in the first place and adding another switch into the mix is two steps in the wrong direction. That is why I use a fuse in the first place, a greased fuse inside a waterproof enclosure is virtually fail- safe. A switch will absolutely fail, speaking statistically here, sooner or later. And if a switch in the bypass harness fails, you will be in even worse shape than not even having the bypass in the first place- the bike will be just as dead and stuck but you will have no way to diagnose it other than removing the harness entirely.
A lot of careful thought went into that harness and trust me, the fuse is not used as any kind of shortcut or in an effort to make the harness less expensive. The very best materials and components (some are OEM but the wire and terminal crimping / sealing are superior to OEM) are used to prevent failures, not to be easy to build or as inexpensive as possible.
As far as fixing the original, if you have a good Kawasaki dealer within reach, it would be worth contacting them about this issue. They have been repairing these, at least in some instances, even on bikes long out of warranty. This problem is due to a bad design and a cheaply made switch in the first place so it is Kawasaki's problem and they have been quite good about taking care of them as they crop up.
Brian
Hey Brian-- your bypass switch solution has saved me but I have not had the time to pull out the ignition switch to fix it yet. Since I'm using it constantly, what would you recommend as an actual switch I can install inline rather than removing/inserting the fuse? And how to install, ie which wires to use/cut?
Thanks,
Robert
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The bike is fixed. Big thanks to Lost River Powersports in Bowling Green and to AMA Rodaside assistance and Clays Auto Body and Towing. Lost River is a big multi brand dealer and they moved me ahead of 91 jobs to get me back on the road.
The problem was a bad positive connection that I missed. I admit I am a lousy wrench! But when I saw that broken negative I was sure that was the problem. Plus it was hot, i was dehydrated and distracted by a bunch of nice folks trying to help. I was in an awkward position in the only available shade between to fuel pump lanes. Thanks to all who gave advice. The service manager asked me before they went to work If I had researched online on a forum and I told him the consensus was a bad batt or bad connection.
That's a bit of a haul from Russelville to Bowling Green. Lost River used to be Mike's Powersports or something like that. Glad they got you fixed up. Polaris Dealer next door is new from when I lived up there.
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...or . (sorry Bob ;D .... well, a little bit sorry. :deadhorse:)
.....so you were stranded about 220 miles away did you get to continue on to the RRG Rally* :)..... or did you just turn around and head for home? :(
(* I looked through the photos (https://msta.smugmug.com/RegionalEvents-2/Kentucky-Rally/2020-Red-River-Gorge-Rally/i-BrVH5Kg) and didn't see any C14s, nor you.)
It would have been mostly over by the time I got to Mt. Sterling. I might have continued on to the rally except I had already rented a car to drive home. The shop was super busy when I dropped it off Friday and the service manager was not making any promises. Not a lot of car rental agencies in Bowling Green and they all had shortened Covid hours. I figured I better grab a car while I could or id be cooling my heels all day Sunday and Monday.
By the time I had the bike back the rental place was closed so I figured I had to wait until 9:00 Sunday morning to turn in the car. I later found out they had a drop box for keys.
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So now I am planning to build a 1 inch longer battery negative cable. The automotive cable is working fine but it is way too long
AS I said above the slightly larger higher capacity Yuasa was stretching the oem cable and causing a stress point at the terminal and the break. I found an online awg chart and it says cable size is 2 AWG. But looking at cable pictures at online stores that look the same size, these say 4 AWG. Does anyone know for sure? I put a caliper on the wire and get .25" and the AWG chart says 2 AWG is .2576"
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I still think hitting it is the correct response..
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::)
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Perhaps you should change the title of this thread to "KIPASS didn't strand me today" or "My own incompetence stranded me today"? :rotflmao:
We all do it, but it's such fun laughing when it's someone else for a change. :chugbeer:
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Let us review: you traded in a supersport tourer for a cruz- ah. :o You often mention that 'your brane hurts'. And now you say you like beating on delicate electro- mechanical devices with a rock..... I think it all adds up.
;) ;D
Brian (the inventor of the 'non- rock' solution that many, though obviously not all, seem to prefer)
I still think hitting it is the correct response..
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You got that right! LOL