Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: lather on May 13, 2017, 05:16:59 PM
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I was accelerating hard in 4th and hit the rev limiter, went to shift up and the bike died, instinctively pulled in clutch I think, coasted, tried starter, nothing. Shifted down and let out clutch, nothing. Coasted to a stop and tried starter, Starter spins fast but seems like the engine is not turning over. Got trailered home by a good samaritan. Honda rider.
I will try to attach a recording.
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Don't shoot the messenger, but maybe check you didn't accidentally hit the kill switch ever so slightly. Don't ask me how I know this can happen!
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Rode home with a Honda rider.... you mean you rode Bi&@h? Oh, the shame.
:rotflmao:
OK, first of all, sorry to hear about this Bob.
Second thing- the first two times you hit the starter and said you got "nothing", did the starter engage and spin up as it did after you stopped? I will continue in the assumption that the starter has always spun up and your mention of "nothing" means it did not start.
If the starter spins, it spins faster than usual and / or there is no 'cranking' or 'lobing' sound as the starter is turning, it generally means one of two things, unfortunately both bad in this case.
1) Starter clutch is shot. This one is fairly cheap but the R&R of the drive comes AFTER the key words 'remove engine'. Ugh. So the good news / bad news is that this is not likely IMO given the fact that the bike quit on you at high speed in the first place.
2) Broken cam chain. Double UGH on this one. The engine may be turning but unusually fast and not 'lobing' because there is no compression 'cause the valves are not working.
You will have to determine which one of these things it is by perhaps pulling the right side crankcase cover and watching to see if the crankshaft turns when the starter is turning; if it is, then it is likely a valve train failure, again the most likely culprit is going to be the timing chain although it could be a cam chain sprocket on the engine or similar. If the engine does NOT turn when the starter does turn, then it is almost certainly the starter drive.
But again, given the fact that you had a failure at speed rather than a simple 'failure to start', I suspect the valve train, which would also cause the engine stoppage in the first place as well as the failure to start afterward.
Sorry to hear this Bob.
Brian
I was accelerating hard in 4th and hit the rev limiter, went to shift up and the bike died, instinctively pulled in clutch I think, coasted, tried starter, nothing. Shifted down and let out clutch, nothing. Coasted to a stop and tried starter, Starter spins fast but seems like the engine is not turning over. Got trailered home by a good samaritan. Honda rider.
I will try to attach a recording.
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Starter will not turn with the kill switch in the 'OFF' position on any Japanese bike that I know of. Certainly not on the C-14.
It ain't gonna' be quite that easy I am afraid.
Brian
Don't shoot the messenger, but maybe check you didn't accidentally hit the kill switch ever so slightly. Don't ask me how I know this can happen!
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Thank you Throttle for the optimism. Thank you Brian for the two miserable realistic realistic possibilities and diagnostic procedure instructions.
I did not ride bitch, Lane was riding with his son Riley on back. They went home to get truck and trailer, loaded me up and drove me 30 miles home. Refused payment.
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Check the simple stuff first. I'd look at the battery and the battery connections. Either one will shut the bike down. Check the connections especially the ground from the (-) lead to the frame and the one next to it. These can corrode and make for a bad ground connection.
Take the battery to an auto parts store and have it load tested. A cell can fail anytime and the electronics will shutdown killing the ignition and/or fuel injection. No battery = no run on these bikes.
Beyond that you have more difficult problems but the fact that the starter runs but doesn't pull in and engage the engine leads me to believe it is an electrical issue.
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OK pulled the timing cover off. The crankshaft spins when the starter spins. The cam chain is taut and intact. The manual troubleshooter says"
Starter motor rotating but engine doesn’t
turn over:
Vehicle-down sensor (DFI) coming off
Starter clutch trouble
Starter idle gear trouble
I think we can rule out Starter clutch or idle gear since the crankshaft is spinning. I hear the fuel pump so I don't suspect the vehicle down sensor but will check per manual anyway and the batt connection. In the morning. Now I need a whisky,
Since the cam chain seems to be fine I will have to consider sheared cam sprocket if the easy things don't produce results but if that were the case I would expect plenty top end racket when spinning starter.
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:popcorn:
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Well at least you did not have to ride on the back of a Honda....
OK, great diagnostic start, and I agree with you that you can rule out starter drive and clutch. And if you can see the timing chain going around, certainly that has not snapped so let's consider the valve train running for the moment.
Now, is the engine still spinning fast when engaging the starter or is it at (or close to) normal cranking speed? Does it lobe as it should going through compression (the high- low- high RPM of a normally aspirating engine)?
At this point, there are two basic choices, 1) mechanical failure but you have ruled out the most likely culprits although of course this does not mean it is 100% certain that all is well, just the 'the usual suspects' are working (starter drive, crank turning, cam chain in place and running at the bottom.... and we will assume at the top as well at this point). 2) Fuel or ignition interruption, both controlled by the ECU. Probably the easiest way to check out the ECU commands at least is to track the wiring down and test them while cranking the engine, looking for pulses that would fire the stick coils or open the fuel injectors. Unfortunately, this may require an oscilloscope or equivalent automotive testing device to check as they pulses will be very fast and of short duration. Now, that said, if the ECU is stopping the bike from starting, there <should> be error code(s) displayed on the LCD.
And still, it is a concern that the bike quit at such high engine speed and load- this does not point to an ECU or electrical / electronic component failure, at least not without the ECU throwing error codes. That said, I believe your symptoms could be, for example, the result of a fuel pump (or fuel pump regulator) failure and I do not think that would throw any codes. I know you said you can hear the fuel pump turn on but we do not know if it is producing any / enough pressure, for example.
Please elaborate about the bike's cranking behavior and we may be able to narrow the choices further.
Brian
OK pulled the timing cover off. The crankshaft spins when the starter spins. The cam chain is taut and intact. The manual troubleshooter says"
Starter motor rotating but engine doesn’t
turn over:
Vehicle-down sensor (DFI) coming off
Starter clutch trouble
Starter idle gear trouble
I think we can rule out Starter clutch or idle gear since the crankshaft is spinning. I hear the fuel pump so I don't suspect the vehicle down sensor but will check per manual anyway and the batt connection. In the morning. Now I need a whisky,
Since the cam chain seems to be fine I will have to consider sheared cam sprocket if the easy things don't produce results but if that were the case I would expect plenty top end racket when spinning starter.
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the engine spins faster than normal, no loping at all. Sounds like an electric motor.
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:popcorn:
Why does this sound like it could use an old fashioned P.O.R.T. (Power Off Reset Test)? Disconnect the battery. Enjoy a carbonated beverage of your choosing. Connect the battery and see if that "reset" the bike.
:popcorn:
Needed more butter.
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I dunno but it's certainly worth a try. First thing in the am I'll disconnect the batt, clean up connections, reconnect and give it a try. Beverage will be coffee. Lol
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I never saw an FI light or an FI message on the display, but I decided to check for any stored codes. Tried the code reading procedure: manual says
Push and turn the key knob to ON. •Push the upper button and lower button for more
than two seconds. •The service code is displayed on the LCD by the number of two digits.
Nothing happened when I did this. I assume this means there are no codes stored.
A few minutes ago I connected my Battery Tender Junior Lithium to the Shorai. The tender went into charge mode and stayed there. When the red light goes out I will disconnect the battery and clean up the connections and do a load test on the battery before I hook it back up.
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No change after disconnecting battery and cleaning all connections and charging battery. Multimeter shows battery at 13.27 volts after charge. Any more suggestions?
I made a couple sound recordings of the starting attempts. THis forum will not allow me to attach these types of files but I have put them on my website if anyone wants to listen.
http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/ (http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/)
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No change after disconnecting battery and cleaning all connections and charging battery. Multimeter shows battery at 13.27 volts after charge. Any more suggestions?
I made a couple sound recordings of the starting attempts. THis forum will not allow me to attach these types of files but I have put them on my website if anyone wants to listen.
http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/ (http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/)
That's a likely cause. A fully charged unloaded battery should read 14.2-14.4 volts. Take the battery and have it load tested but I think you'll find it's bad.
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That's a likely cause. A fully charged unloaded battery should read 14.2-14.4 volts. Take the battery and have it load tested but I think you'll find it's bad.
That is what it reads on the display with the motor running. They won't read 14v at rest. My 08 reads 12.67 at rest with the same external multimeter and it cranks and starts just fine.
If you listen to the recordings it sounds like there is no compression.
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Batteries are funky at best. A load test will be a quick way to rule it out. They may appear to take a charge but will not actually be storing any energy. If there is a way to swap it out with a known good battery then try that. A bad battery will drop voltage way down under load. Some functionality of the bike may appear to work but there will be that little voice in your brain that's saying "something isn't right with this..."
My battery experience consisted of a normal start and a short ride to the bank one fine day. When I hopped on to go to the next errand I had no joy. Some of the electrical stuff worked but it wouldn't start. I thought, wrongly, that the battery was OK since I had lights and such. Like I said, batteries can be funky. Good luck.
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That is what it reads on the display with the motor running. They won't read 14v at rest. My 08 reads 12.67 at rest with the same external multimeter and it cranks and starts just fine.
If you listen to the recordings it sounds like there is no compression.
Regardless, it's low. But I suppose you can tear down the top-end as a first step. My practice, however, is to rule out the simple and generally inexpensive stuff first, and then if the problem remains, check into the more complicated and expensive stuff. You checked the wiring and that's OK, you tested the battery and it's clearly low. My recommendation is to rule that out. Remember that on the C14, as with most ECU controlled vehicles, will crank with LOW battery voltage but the electronics will not work. So you may get cranking but no spark or fuel.
After that I'd check the starter to make sure it's actually engaging and cranking the engine. Then I'd check the FI and ignition systems as described in the service manual. I'd also check the fuel pump and the fuel pressure.
After that I'd probably pull the plugs and do a compression check. But hey, it's your time and money, do what you think best.
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Valves kissed the pistons. No compression. do you hear it backfire in the intake or exhaust? Steve
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Valves kissed the pistons. No compression. do you hear it backfire in the intake or exhaust? Steve
Sounds like it. Has anyone been in the top end recently?
12.8 is a good hot resting charge on a battery, 1.1-1.2V per cell is all you'll get. Have the battery load tested to eliminate that possibility.
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What do you think a healty, fully- charged, 12 volt lead- acid battery should read once the surface charge is gone (read: after sitting, left alone for 24 hrs.)?
Listen to the recording; it is CLEARLY NOT cranking slowly. Not even close. Not even close to normal speed but instead, very fast. And no pulsing to indicate the 'suck, blow' of the 'suck, squeeze, bang, blow' cycles of the engine. The man's bike is not aspirating.
He verified he is actually cranking the engine per the post on the previous page where he was watching the crankshaft turn and the cam chain play around the crankshaft sprocket. This information per post #6 in this thread, from yesterday.
Nice touch with the sarcasm, it goes together really quite well with a lack of reading compression skills shown here.....
It ain't lookin' good for that bike I am afraid....
Brian
Regardless, it's low. But I suppose you can tear down the top-end as a first step. My practice, however, is to rule out the simple and generally inexpensive stuff first, and then if the problem remains, check into the more complicated and expensive stuff. You checked the wiring and that's OK, you tested the battery and it's clearly low. My recommendation is to rule that out. Remember that on the C14, as with most ECU controlled vehicles, will crank with LOW battery voltage but the electronics will not work. So you may get cranking but no spark or fuel.
After that I'd check the starter to make sure it's actually engaging and cranking the engine. Then I'd check the FI and ignition systems as described in the service manual. I'd also check the fuel pump and the fuel pressure.
After that I'd probably pull the plugs and do a compression check. But hey, it's your time and money, do what you think best.
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vvt ?
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Valves kissed the pistons. No compression. do you hear it backfire in the intake or exhaust? Steve
10 or 12 times I have tried it so far I hear nothing but the rapid whirring. One time I heard a very muffled pop.
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Sounds like it. Has anyone been in the top end recently?
12.8 is a good hot resting charge on a battery, 1.1-1.2V per cell is all you'll get. Have the battery load tested to eliminate that possibility.
Yes. I did a valve adjustment two weeks, 500 miles ago. Was starting and running normally with no unusual noise after the job. Rode 400 hard and fast miles with an FJR and an R1 last week with never a hint of trouble.
But... Mighty coincidental. And, seems I have developed a bad tendency lately. As Neil Young sang: Why do I keep fxxxing up?
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vvt ?
I will read up on that and study the diagrams but I don't think a VVT failure would cause total intake valve failure, just the variable timing.
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Interesting and good point I think.
I do not <believe> that a stuck VVT would cause a C-14 to go absolutely dead, no matter where in its travel it was stuck.... or even if it was flopping around loose (Easy Boys!) without any precise timing control. The VVT would normally lock in the fully retarded position but this bike did fail at WOT and redline so it is possible the cam timing is at full- advance. But as I said, I believe the engine would still pump air (aspirate) with the cam fully advanced though that is merely my best guess, not a fact. It is possible that there is enough timing overlap at full VVT advance to prevent any air pumping action from the engine. ??
And we still have to account for the fact that the bike quit running at high speed and under high load. With that factored in, along with the other data presented, including the unusual cranking sound, I think there is a lot of evidence pointing to an internal (Boys!) failure of some kind. And given that it is an '09, and all repair scenarios start and end with the bike's clothes off, engine out, then after whatever repair(s) is needed, engine back in frame, clothes reinstalled, it would require some consideration on the part of the owner as to whether this is realistic to do or not.
Again, not wishing the worst on Bob and I am not a doom- cryer but this is the situation as I see it, given what has already been presented in this thread. And not to dismiss Bob's difficulties at all, even this is better, IMO, than any significant crash, such as would have probably happened had the engine seized rather than just failed to run. So while not good news, it could absolutely be far worse.
Brian
vvt ?
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just throwing it out there, there was this on the cog forum....
I have know idea why that link will not copy unless the original title has been changed. It is concerning a bad vvt actuator. It will show if you type vvt in the search box.
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There was the time a bike broke it's tie downs and came off the trailer at a reasonable enough speed that the ins co. wrote it off as totaled....just sayin' 8)
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In the recording it sounds like a light chuff-chuff-chuff. Is it possible that the cam chain jumped a tooth or two? Run a compression test.
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Before you start tearing the bike down try the old mechanic's trick of throwing money at it. Hold a one dollar bill over the muffler outlet (loosely and by the top of the opening), have someone crank the engine over to see if it's pumping air. If it is moving air the dollar bill should move with each cylinder pulse as the exhaust valve opens.
Bob Skinner
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just throwing it out there, there was this on the cog forum.... http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/found (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/found)!!!-nybiomed's-'09-nonrunning-issue-has-been-determined!!!/
Seems to be a the wrong link?
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Before you start tearing the bike down try the old mechanic's trick of throwing money at it. Hold a one dollar bill over the muffler outlet (loosely and by the top of the opening), have someone crank the engine over to see if it's pumping air. If it is moving air the dollar bill should move with each cylinder pulse as the exhaust valve opens.
Bob Skinner
Had someone at the "other" forum suggest hold hand over muffler outlet while a helper hits the starter. Mentioned that to the wife in the kitchen. She just went on stirring the etoufee, din't even look up. But I can tape the bill to the outlet and do it solo.
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She probably did not hear anything after hearing the words 'my exhaust' and 'watching a dollar bill ruffle in 'my exhaust's ' output.
:rotflmao:
Anybody else remember that thread about feeling the exhaust pulses of a C-14 around here from about one million years ago? It was a long thread but more than worth the read as I remember.
That is a good idea though- actually, both of them, the hand over the muffler to feel for pulses and watching a piece of paper for the same pulses.
And the idea that the VVT is fully the wrong way and / or a cam has jumped a tooth (per the other poster) could explain how the engine will not pump air (or not nearly enough) and yet is NOT 'munched' internally. It is possible that the valves are overlapping enough to prevent the engine acting as an air pump and yet the valves did not hit the pistons. So there is the 'cheap 'n easy' out for this one.
My suggestion would be to remove enough of the right side fairings to get at the engine side. You will have to do this for any other test that I can think of anyway. At that point, pull the right side covers and have a look at the cam timing on both the crankshaft as well as the camshaft. Also, check the VVT to make sure it is all the way back to the 'home' or 'rest' position- not sure how to do that but we can work through it when you get that far. Basically you will have to compare the intake cam position to the intake sprocket position to verify where in the VVT's travel the cam is at this point in time. If the cam chain HAS skipped a tooth, the easiest / cheapest thing to do is to rotate the engine to -zero- timing, remove the cam chain and <gently> try to put the cams back in- time. Then re-install the cam chain and the cam chain tensioner, and then see if the engine will turn over by hand in the correct direction only. If it does and all seems well, hit the starter and see if 1) it works correctly, chugging as an air pump and with a little luck 2) starts or tries to start. At that point you can probably button up the engine covers and actually start it.
All of this is far, far easier than pulling the engine and has a possibility of success. ??
As always, the very best of luck moving forward on this and do keep us abreast 'cause that is where we like to be.
Brian
Had someone at the "other" forum suggest hold hand over muffler outlet while a helper hits the starter. Mentioned that to the wife in the kitchen. She just went on stirring the etoufee, din't even look up. But I can tape the bill to the outlet and do it solo.
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if the cams get out of phase you'll get a check engine light. Steve
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Regardless, it's low. But I suppose you can tear down the top-end as a first step. My practice, however, is to rule out the simple and generally inexpensive stuff first, and then if the problem remains, check into the more complicated and expensive stuff. You checked the wiring and that's OK, you tested the battery and it's clearly low. My recommendation is to rule that out. Remember that on the C14, as with most ECU controlled vehicles, will crank with LOW battery voltage but the electronics will not work. So you may get cranking but no spark or fuel.
After that I'd check the starter to make sure it's actually engaging and cranking the engine. Then I'd check the FI and ignition systems as described in the service manual. I'd also check the fuel pump and the fuel pressure.
After that I'd probably pull the plugs and do a compression check. But hey, it's your time and money, do what you think best.
No sorry that is not low... A fully charged 12 volt battery in perfect shape should read 12.73 +/- a little either way depending on age and state of charge...
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Once You eliminate the battery as the issue, I believe I would move on and do a pulse check on the ignition. Use an old spark plug on one of the stick coils, and ground it on the engine or chassis to see if there's spark. Movie on to a compression check next. Troubleshooting can be a bear, but fuel, air/compression, and spark are the ticket for anything to run. I know it's a lot of work digging into that fairing, but it sounds as if You're headed that way.
Amazon sells a motorcycle specific compression gauge for a reasonable price. https://www.amazon.com/OTC-5604-Motorcycle-Compression-Tester/dp/B002W53J6S (https://www.amazon.com/OTC-5604-Motorcycle-Compression-Tester/dp/B002W53J6S)
They also have a pretty nifty spark tester for stick coils setups. https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-20700-Coil-Spark-Tester/dp/B00IXMA1RY (https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-20700-Coil-Spark-Tester/dp/B00IXMA1RY)
Yuasa has a pretty good battery load test procedure on pg 22 of this PDF. http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechManual_2014.pdf (http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechManual_2014.pdf)
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Again, thanks to all for the support. I ran the dollar bill test a few minutes ago. I get a very slight agitation of the bill, could be just vibration coming through the exhaust pipes. For contrast I did the test on the 08 and get very different result. Of course once the engine fires the bill flaps wildly but before it fires the bill is clearly lifted up and away from the outlet by the engine pumping.
Videos for you viewing pleasure:
http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/ (http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/)
Thanks Jamiemac for the advice and tool links. I have to go to the city to pick up my track bike at the Yamaha dealer for recall work. Cycle Gear is just up the road from there and I'll stop by and see what tools they have, maybe even buy a new battery. The one in the 08 is getting old.
So at this point I am pretty convinced I have little or no compression possibly due to bent valves but also VVT problem or jumped camshaft or some other mechanic screwup.
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Valves kissed the pistons. No compression. do you hear it backfire in the intake or exhaust? Steve
[/qu
ote]
Would you get some signs of compression if some cylinder had no bent valves Steve?
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Again, thanks to all for the support. I ran the dollar bill test a few minutes ago. I get a very slight agitation of the bill, could be just vibration coming through the exhaust pipes. For contrast I did the test on the 08 and get very different result. Of course once the engine fires the bill flaps wildly but before it fires the bill is clearly lifted up and away from the outlet by the engine pumping.
Videos for you viewing pleasure:
http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/ (http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/)
Thanks Jamiemac for the advice and tool links. I have to go to the city to pick up my track bike at the Yamaha dealer for recall work. Cycle Gear is just up the road from there and I'll stop by and see what tools they have, maybe even buy a new battery. The one in the 08 is getting old.
So at this point I am pretty convinced I have little or no compression possibly due to bent valves but also VVT problem or jumped camshaft or some other mechanic screwup.
Sorry to hear about Your troubles, brother. Sure hope You get her back on the road soon.
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Was this the first time since the valve adjustment that you had revved it that high?
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Was this the first time since the valve adjustment that you had revved it that high?
Possibly. But Last Sunday I rode twisties with an R1M with a tweaked motor. He was parking it in the corners and blasting out at the exit. I couldn't quite stay with him on the straights but I was trying just for grins. Probably saw 9500 rpm often.
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It is possible that there is enough timing overlap at full VVT advance to prevent any air pumping action from the engine. ??
Wow, that would really surprise me if it were! Could it really leave all valves open enough at activation to have both open as the same time (ex & in) for a short amount of time? Even if it did, there should still be some significant pumping compression that would be noticeable at the exhaust system when hitting the starter, right?
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Wow, that would really surprise me if it were! Could it really leave all valves open enough at activation to have both open as the same time (ex & in) for a short amount of time? Even if it did, there should still be some significant pumping compression that would be noticeable at the exhaust system when hitting the starter, right?
It would never work... if there was so much overlap the engine couldn't make compression, the engine couldn't run. Steve
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First look:
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/camshaftends.jpg)
That's not how I timed the intake cam!
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/timingwheel.jpg)
Note the missing finger! How the heck did that happen? I have a clear image of that wheel in my head from before the failure and thinking what an odd asymmetrical pattern. But I did not look close enough to see the broken metal
What do I do next? I am thinking order a timing wheel. But It appears the intake cam has jumped some teeth or the VVT has broken. The black mark you see on the VVT was drawn parallel to the head surface before I removed the cams.
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Yes. "Valve overlap" is the portion of the engine's rotation where both the intake and exhaust valves are open. Now obviously this period cannot be long enough on a fixed- cam timed engine to prevent it from being started and allowing it to idle. But on an engine that uses VVT it is possible that at max. cam advance, meant only for extremely high RPM usage, it is possible that the engine would fail to pump enough air to start and / or idle at all.
An excellent example of this is unlimited drag racing engines; note how fast they "idle" and how badly.... this is because basically they will NOT idle and so have to be ran much faster than what we would consider a reasonable idle speed to simply run at all. This is all due to the extreme cam timing overlap on these engines, which regularly cross the trap line at 13K RPM; they are designed for absolutely maximum output, with no regard to idle characteristics at all and as a result, they will not start or idle at normal 'starting' or 'idling' speeds.
I honestly cannot remember what the RPM is that the VVT system fully advances the intake cam on a C-14 but 7K RPM comes to mind; I do know that is when the secondary butterflies open. At any rate, and engine tuned to run 'best' at 7K RPM would indeed run poorly, if at all, at reasonable cranking or idling speeds, say, below 1,500 RPM or so.
Brian
Wow, that would really surprise me if it were! Could it really leave all valves open enough at activation to have both open as the same time (ex & in) for a short amount of time? Even if it did, there should still be some significant pumping compression that would be noticeable at the exhaust system when hitting the starter, right?
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Extremely interesting and progress, at least toward knowing what is going on with your engine.
First of all, see if you can see anything around the periphery of the crankshaft timing wheel where a tooth may have struck; the usual place is the sensor itself- they loosen and then get struck by the very teeth they are sensing. If this is what happened, it may well be the root, beginning and end of your problem. What you have is a 'missing tooth' timing scheme that is missing an extra tooth, and going by the photo, it was pretty clearly broken off. Is there any chance you may have dropped a tool or something and struck the tooth when doing the valve adjust a few hundred miles ago? If the tooth were bent in (toward the center of the bike), perhaps that is what caused it to strike something. Also, is the timing wheel tight?
As to the valve timing, that may be a result and not actually causal regarding your problem; if the VVT was left fully advanced, that may well be perfectly normal as the engine shut down at very high RPM. There may not have been enough hydraulic pressure at that time or since (during cranking) to allow it to return to its original, 'zero', position. You may have to help it along; normally, the VVT will return to -0- timing and a shot- pin locks the timing in place until hydraulic pressure (from the oiling system) is high enough to unlock the shot- pin and then the advance valve controls the actual cam timing. It is basically a hydraulic vane motor that has two sides or alternate chambers; routing the oil to one side or the other is what causes the device to advance or retard the cam.
But I do believe your primary problem revolves (no pun intended) around that broken tooth. Also, check out the crank position sensor to see if it has been damaged by the tooth when it 'flew', even if it was never in the arc of the timing wheel itself. And you should look around for that tooth; it is somewhere around in the bottom of that engine and while it may not cause you any grief in the future, it cannot possibly have any benefit either so best if you found and removed it IMO.
The plot thickens but you now have the problem at hand I think.
Brian
First look:
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/camshaftends.jpg)
That's not how I timed the intake cam!
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/timingwheel.jpg)
Note the missing finger! How the heck did that happen? I have a clear image of that wheel in my head from before the failure and thinking what an odd asymmetrical pattern. But I did not look close enough to see the broken metal
What do I do next? I am thinking order a timing wheel. But It appears the intake cam has jumped some teeth or the VVT has broken. The black mark you see on the VVT was drawn parallel to the head surface before I removed the cams.
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Another question: is the cam chain tight? Is the cam chain tensioner firmly (Boys!) resisting being pushed back? If the CCT failed, that could be the root of your problem, though you will still have to figure out how and why that tooth broke off the crank timing wheel.
Brian
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I looked for the tooth on the floor where I was working and did not find it It is not anywhere in the engine that I can see or reach with my eyes or fingers. My large magnetic probe is too large to get into the passages behind what I can see, and my small probe (oops) is broken, I will have to buy a new one. If that fails will need to drain the oil and hope something comes out with it.
I still feel certain that that tooth was already missing when I closed up the timing cover. But at my age nothing is truly certain. But i would think it would cause a noticeable miss at least.
The sensor is snug and no sign of a hit and there is plenty of clearance everywhere else around the perimeter. The chain is nice and tight. I have not removed the tensioner yet. Do you mean push against the tensioner from the chain side. I need a break and plan to ride the 08 to the Kawasaki dealership and order a timing wheel.
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First things first: are you saying your 'probe' is too big to get into 'the passages behind'? Oh my.....
Last thing- Yes, I mean is the cam chain tensioner still tight enough to prevent the chain from gaining enough slack to cause a problem. And yes, I mean to push back on it from the 'inside' (Easy Boys!), which I do not think you can do but you can try tensioning the chain against the tensioner (trying to pull the 'bow' out of the chain where the tensioner is) and seeing if there is any appreciable give in the system. All I am trying to do is to rule out a bad CCT. You can also do this by carefully removing the CCT and seeing if you can push it back in, as the chain is always trying to do; the tensioner should be locked up tight as a bank vault and absolutely prevent you from moving it outward at all (it should be engaged in a tooth on the ratchet and not allow any retreat).
I believe the ECU will require that tooth to function properly. That said, I do not know for a fact that it will start / run without that tooth but I do know the firing timing would be far enough off (something like 10 degrees) to cause the bike to run poorly and / or without a lot of power- more than 1/2 of its potential power not available. There is no way you could ride a bike with the timing that far off and simply not notice. So I am assuming, by logical determination, that the tooth breaking off was the actual cause of your current situation. It is the root problem, and I do not think it could have been that way when you buttoned up the engine after a valve lash check / adjust.
All of the above said, it <may> depend on which way the crankshaft rotates because it is possible that if the missing tooth is on the leading side of the gap (the missing teeth), then the ECU <may> not respond to what amounts to correct timing but simply too big of a preceding gap. Even so, if that was not the cause of your problem, you will need to find the actual cause anyway. But again, I believe it is the tooth falling / getting knocked off that started the chain of events that led to what you show in that photo (the intake cam timing being a result, not causal).
A missing tooth system works by sensing the first tooth AFTER the gap. So if the crankshaft turns clockwise in your photo, and I believe it does, then removing that tooth would retard the entire timing structure in the ECU by too much to go unnoticed.
There are also cam position sensors in the C-14 but I doubt they are sensitive enough to detect an [out of phase] condition between the crankshaft and camshaft(s) by one tooth; the ECU and the sensors are just not fast enough to catch that nor are they supposed to do so. The camshaft sensors are there to verify which part of the 720 degree crankshaft rotation the crankshaft happens to be in. Put another way, the crankshaft turns twice (720 degrees total) for a complete engine cycle so the ECU needs to know if the crank is passing -0- degrees rotation in the first turn or the second turn of the engine to determine spark plug firing.
Back to the beginning, I think it is important to determine if that lost tooth was the cause or not, and try to determine where it is. I doubt it rode an oil stream into the crankcase proper but I guess it is possible; either way, it should be sitting in the bottom end of the crankcase proper or the sidecase envelope somewhere. Of course it is possible that the broken tooth is not causal and is just a coincidence but I honestly do not think that is the case.
Shades of Haraldo's valve lash saga..... :yikes:
Brian
I looked for the tooth on the floor where I was working and did not find it It is not anywhere in the engine that I can see or reach with my eyes or fingers. My large magnetic probe is too large to get into the passages behind what I can see, and my small probe (oops) is broken, I will have to buy a new one. If that fails will need to drain the oil and hope something comes out with it.
I still feel certain that that tooth was already missing when I closed up the timing cover. But at my age nothing is truly certain. But i would think it would cause a noticeable miss at least.
The sensor is snug and no sign of a hit and there is plenty of clearance everywhere else around the perimeter. The chain is nice and tight. I have not removed the tensioner yet. Do you mean push against the tensioner from the chain side. I need a break and plan to ride the 08 to the Kawasaki dealership and order a timing wheel.
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Should have a new the timing wheel Thursday or Friday. On way back from the dealer I stopped at Home depot and bought a nifty bendable magnetic pickup tool and that has produced some answers from the sump. Or at least new questions.
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/ShearedSprocketBolt.jpg)
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/ExCamSprocket.jpg)
So why did the sprocket shear. Oiling problem? Cam cap bolts to tight.
I suspect the bolt head took out the timing tooth on its way down. I have not found the other head yet
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Interesting... When you had the engine apart did you remove the exhaust cam sprocket? If not, then I'm going to assume it's as-is from the factory which is a safe bet that it's torqued properly. I don't think this was caused by over-torqued cam cap bolts. You can tighten them all you want and the threads in the head will strip but the cap won't really get tighter on the shaft. It may distort but my money is on stripped threads first.
I think you'll see the issue once the cam is out. Either something got in the way and blocked it from turning or one of the journals didn't get enough oil and it seized up. Of course the problem now is that it's likely that at the last position of the camshaft one of the exhaust valves was open and is now bent. Keep your fingers crossed though, it's possible that the head is OK...
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Ah, more progress!
OK, assuming you did not touch the VVT bolts (there is no need to do so when checking / adjusting valve lash), I would jump ahead and assume the intake cam seized or at least partially seized. As another poster said, pull the intake cam and you should find the base problem.
It is possible that an O-ring on one of the oil- pipes was damaged during reassembly; I have replaced several of them that were nicked up from routine R&R. If one was damaged enough, perhaps you lost oil pressure to the cam bearing saddle(s) and that caused a cam seizure. It is also possible that a cam saddle bearing cap went on [not straight] and allowed the oil to pour out and not pressurize in the cam journals- those little guys are tricky, especially since you have to finish seating the camshafts against the valve springs by cranking the caps down with the bolts in the first place. Easy enough to have a problem with that. Again, look carefully at the bearing saddle caps before you unbolt or remove them to see if they are miss- seated or something similar. Another tell- tale is if one of the thin runners between the caps is bent or twisted.
I agree with you about the bolt head taking out the timing wheel; look closely all around the timing wheel with a strong light and you should see whatever the bolt head wedged against while shearing that tooth off.
I think you have found the root cause and can now find the 'trail of destruction', which is a great thing because it gives a lot of confidence in fixing the problem fully. It is still possible this is correctable although there is a possibility of damage to the cam bearing saddle(s) and valve to piston contact.
Brian
Should have a new the timing wheel Thursday or Friday. On way back from the dealer I stopped at Home depot and bought a nifty bendable magnetic pickup tool and that has produced some answers from the sump. Or at least new questions.
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/ExCamSprocket.jpg)
So why did the sprocket shear. Oiling problem? Cam cap bolts to tight.
I suspect the bolt head took out the timing tooth on its way down. I have not found the other head yet
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Shades of Haraldo's valve lash saga..... :yikes:
Brian
I was thinking it, you said it. :hail:
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Hey, stuff happens and at least Haroldo was honest enough to 'fess up. Even beyond that, he took all the ribbing (and man, did he get some serious, nuclear- level ribbing over that.....) like he was wearing big- boy pants. Everybody steps in it now and then and frankly, I have more respect for those people who admit than others who claim otherwise. So if Bob made a mistake, and we do not know if that is so or not, I think he will just express it frankly. I have met Bob (and Mrs. Bob) and he seems like a stand- up guy without enough ego to get in the way.
And beyond that, a valve lash adjustment is kind of a big project, especially for a non- professional mechanic, and it is really quite easy to 'munch' one. I have done a handfull of them and all I would say is that I have not, to the best of my knowledge, muched one.... yet.
Man, I miss Haroldo..... :'( He has got a BMW story that absolutely dwarfs any C-14 story of his you ever heard; I cannot repeat it but it involves gasoline, a telephone book (soaked with gasoline.... Haroldo stories grow as they go), a torch (falling onto said phone book) and a stuck garage door (between Haroldo, the flaming phone book and sweet, sweet freedom). It all turned out fine though.... for everyone but the phone book, and perhaps a traumatized neighbor or two.
Brian
I was thinking it, you said it. :hail:
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So why did the sprocket shear. Oiling problem? Cam cap bolts to tight.
I suspect the bolt head took out the timing tooth on its way down. I have not found the other head yet
If the sprocket is cracked (I can't see it on this laptop), it is usually from the bolt head striking something before it is completely out of the hole. I haven't been in one of these motors yet, is there room for the bolt to clear the oil pipes if it is backing out? I would be checking for an impact point and damage. Unfortunately, bent valves are a probability.
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And beyond that, a valve lash adjustment is kind of a big project, especially for a non- professional mechanic, and it is really quite easy to 'munch' one. I have done a handfull of them and all I would say is that I have not, to the best of my knowledge, muched one.... yet.
Brian
Yep, I found it very nerve racking to say the least. I have about 500 miles or better on mine since and so far so good. This thread makes me nervous!
I have a burning bike in the garage story too! That one was a close call.Fortunately the garage door was open 8)
Wayne
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I can get a .014 (.35 mm) feeler under #4b exhaust. :'( I measured it at .22mm after the adjustment. 4A and both 3s are not as bad but at least .010 in. Here are pictures of one of two oil pipe o-rings that look bad:
(http://wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/oilpipeo-ring3.jpg)
The picture of the second pipe came out blurred but there is similar damage to the o-ring. It has been suggested an oiling problem caused the cam seizure but there are also suggestions that the sprocket bolts just walked out
I am going to remove the cam caps and have a look. But it seems likely the head will have to come off.
In the overall scheme of things this is just a hiccup.
In December of 2000 our 1200 square foot wooden shop burned down when a stray dog we were sheltering from a hard freeze gnawed through the heating pad we were using to keep her bed warm. We lost an 84 Ninja 900, an 2000 Ninja 500 and a 99 CBR1100XX Blackbird.
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And the dog too? That is too bad (in addition to the loss of the motorcycles and the building of course). A friend of mine lost his house to fire back around 2000 and in addition to all the things lost, some replaceable, some not, he lost four dogs he had saved from being put down a few years earlier.
Nice job of finding more of the trail of evidence. Too bad you have not found, at least not yet, the causal event that started this chain of events. I really doubt those bolts just walked out as it is not a problem normally and the odds of two bolts backing out are too high IMO. Shearing is more likely, and that had to have been caused by something REALLY sudden and severe resisting the rotation of the cam to cause that- I kind of doubt that the bearings seizing could be the culprit so maybe valve / piston strike did happen. ?? That would surely shock the system sufficiently to break things and I mean beyond the valve stems themselves.
At the point the head has to come off due to any type of internal damage, I would suggest thinking long and hard (yeah, this is where I would normally say it....) before starting such a project on a 2009 production motorcycle. Especially one where they are still made and readily available, both new and used, sometimes at really surprisingly low prices. Certainly if you liked to tinker with mechanics, or wanted to modify the bike / engine with something like a turbo or anything else custom but just to get a stock engine / chassis back in service is probably not economically sound. As always, I am not spending your money or telling you how you should do so but even just R&R'ing an engine will be a lot of work if it is not something you actually enjoy doing as a hobby. To farm it out will also be cost- prohibitive, again because there is so much labor. So even swapping the engine for another one is economically questionable IMO, when compared to buying another used C-14 and either parting this one out or selling the hulk as a non- running parts bike.
Brian
I can get a .014 (.35 mm) feeler under #4b exhaust. :'( I measured it at .22mm after the adjustment. 4A and both 3s are not as bad but at least .010 in. Here are pictures of one of two oil pipe o-rings that look bad:
(http://wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/oilpipeo-ring3.jpg)
The picture of the second pipe came out blurred but there is similar damage to the o-ring. It has been suggested an oiling problem caused the cam seizure but there are also suggestions that the sprocket bolts just walked out
I am going to remove the cam caps and have a look. But it seems likely the head will have to come off.
In the overall scheme of things this is just a hiccup.
In December of 2000 our 1200 square foot wooden shop burned down when a stray dog we were sheltering from a hard freeze gnawed through the heating pad we were using to keep her bed warm. We lost an 84 Ninja 900, an 2000 Ninja 500 and a 99 CBR1100XX Blackbird.
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Thanks for your thoughts, they are in line with my own at this time. I have already started removing farkles to mount (whoa!) on the 08 to get it ready for the MSTA national in June.
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Ah, the good ole' "Mounting Farkles": yep, that outta' take your mind off your troubles.
;D
Look at the bright side: you are probably a year ahead of me in looking for that clean, nice, excellent running but cheap C-14.... so we are unlikely to run into each other in that dusty Oklahoma town, trying to underbid each other for the same bike.
Brian
Thanks for your thoughts, they are in line with my own at this time. I have already started removing farkles to mount (whoa!) on the 08 to get it ready for the MSTA national in June.
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Thanks for your thoughts, they are in line with my own at this time. I have already started removing farkles to mount (whoa!) on the 08 to get it ready for the MSTA national in June.
It's always good to have a spare bike...or two... 8)
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Both bolts sheared, looks like bent valves in 3 and 4 and dropped in 2.
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/excam.jpg)
Buckets for 3 &4 are way low #2 was way high
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/exvalvebuckets.jpg)
Pulled #2 bucket and found this
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/number2ex.jpg)
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Well, that is unfortunate. Still no clear cause though? The journals that show in that photo look fine- no galling or anything else obvious.
Brian
Pulled #2 bucket and found this
(http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/number2ex.jpg)
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My condolences Lather on your loss.
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At least his balls didn't go missing.
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Thanks guys. Yep, still have my balls... :)
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:thumbs:
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Unfortunately, we weren't able to recover the posts AC (after crash). We all lost out on that. I lost a significant amount of posts as well.
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Unfortunately, we weren't able to recover the posts AC (after crash). We all lost out on that. I lost a significant amount of posts as well.
Me too.
But I was able to recover a few important ones from Google's cache and repost.