Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: kdm on July 09, 2011, 07:24:32 PM
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For those who paid to have the valves adjusted -- what's a fair price ? Local dealer seems a little high.
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I wish there was a flat rate guide for the C14. It would be nice to know how long the Dealer is given for each specific job.
Like this ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-Yamaha-Service-Flat-Rate-Manual-Scooter-Motorcycle-/120494250099
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My guess is that a good dealer can pull off all the stuff to get to the valves, do the value adjust, put everything back in place in about 2 - 3 hours.
In the California Bay Area the hourly rate seems to be about $85 dollars and hour. (Most shops post the hourly rate in the service area).
So my guess in labor $150 - $250 + parts. Likely if you would add an oil / filter change when you open the engine and as long as the have more than 10k miles might as well do the plugs.
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Seems like many of the reports here on this forum have run up to $400 for the check, with no adjustments needed. Full check with adjustments, requiring cam removal, can run in the $600 range.
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I wish there was a flat rate guide for the C14. It would be nice to know how long the Dealer is given for each specific job.
Like this ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-Yamaha-Service-Flat-Rate-Manual-Scooter-Motorcycle-/120494250099
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My guess is that a good dealer can pull off all the stuff to get to the valves, do the value adjust, put everything back in place in about 2 - 3 hours.
In the California Bay Area the hourly rate seems to be about $85 dollars and hour. (Most shops post the hourly rate in the service area).
So my guess in labor $150 - $250 + parts. Likely if you would add an oil / filter change when you open the engine and as long as the have more than 10k miles might as well do the plugs.
My guess is that dealer is accessing the valve cover with a sawzall and a big pry bar.
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Seems like many of the reports here on this forum have run up to $400 for the check, with no adjustments needed. Full check with adjustments, requiring cam removal, can run in the $600 range.
Yeah, my local shop wants $650 to do the complete job,including plugs ! So ,where can I get a set of Freds videos?
Guess it's time to give it a try myself.
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Man, have you seen this? Just look at page 3 of the tread. HELL NO! NOT DOING IT. I don't care how much, ain't gona touch it.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2375.30 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2375.30)
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My guess is that a good dealer can pull off all the stuff to get to the valves, do the value adjust, put everything back in place in about 2 - 3 hours.
In the California Bay Area the hourly rate seems to be about $85 dollars and hour. (Most shops post the hourly rate in the service area).
So my guess in labor $150 - $250 + parts. Likely if you would add an oil / filter change when you open the engine and as long as the have more than 10k miles might as well do the plugs.
common flat rate now runs between $90-$115 / hour.
4 hours on this job?? correctly done, first time shot, will take even an experienced (i.e. having actually done THIS bike before) tech, a minimum of 4 hours, that is if they have the parts and shims at hand....add in doing an oil change, air filter, throttle body synch, and you add in another hour + or so.
Hazardous waste disposal, and shop fees for oil, cleaning rags, sealants, etc., will add on another $75. Add in the cost for the valve cover gasket (they WILL charge for a new one), plugs, oil, filters, and you have another $160-$180.....
so in the end, the prices they are giving are in line, IF they actually do the services, and replace the parts.
This my friends is why I don't believe a lot of the reports of "your valves are within spec" I hear soo many times.
I have my work area setup with every tool I need, and have worked in the industry doing massive teardowns and repairs, these times are realistic, and don't take into account the distractions clearly arrising in a shop on a daily basis (change this tire, the customer is coming in in 2 hours, and then empty the garbage....)
so, this ain't a simple job, but on the other hand, it ain't rocket science. 8)
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Many shops on a job like this will give you a flat rate that can be negotiated. If you go by shop time it can get a bit too interesting. Having done this for a living many years ago the time to do a big job is greatly influenced by interruptions, lack of knowledge if it is the first time, finding borrowed tools, finding space to put all the pieces-parts removed from the bike to get to where you need to work and so on. I would call this a big job for two reasons - lots of stuff to remove to just get to the initial measurements and the need to remove cams to make the adjustments if required. For those of you planning on doing this for the first time and if you do not have a lot of mechanical experience, it is not a hard job. Get the video and take your time. It does require the correct tools and lots of time. Plan a couple of days not counting the waiting for the correct shins to come in. If you do not have a lift it can be a real back killer. I will pay $400 -$600 to not have to walk like a hunchbacked gnome for a week afterwards.
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hit the nail right on the head there...lots of room is needed....and a lift is definatly a ++++100
(http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/14058/2980929930015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2980929930015463693vlgiou)
(http://inlinethumb26.webshots.com/49049/2547364590015463693S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2547364590015463693XiBwkj)
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I have no doubt that this is no 2 hour job even for an experienced mechanic. But a couple of you have mentions "distractions etc". I hope we are not expected to pay for the time spent on distractions, or even looking in the book to see how to do it. The reason we pay trained & certified mechanics is that they are supposed to know how to do the job we are paying them for.
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There IS a flat- rate guide for the C-14, dealers have it, or at least my local dealer does. They list a valve adjust as taking 3.2 hours, including lifting the cams and changing shims as required. My dealer doubles that estimate and still expected to miss the mark by quite a bit. Good call on their part too.
As for doing a valve lash check and adjustment on a C-14 in 2, 3 or 3.2 hours, there is no way that can be done IMO. I have done this job several times now, have pneumatic tools and can move along quickly and there is simply no way that this job can be done in that amount of time. At least not 3.2 Earth hours (Jupiter hours, maybe). There is just too much work to be done getting to the valve cover, and checking all of the clearances and writing that down is more than a nine minute job in itself.
I would be impressed if it could be done in one day (8 working hours, Earth hours). By that I mean starting on a cold but complete and running bike at, say, 8:00 AM and having a finished, fully assembled C-14 at 4:00 PM that day (5:00 PM if you want to have lunch and lick your wounds a bit).
But in anything even approaching 3 hours.... not in this lifetime in my opinion. It reminds me of an old Archie Bunker like about Meathead: 'He eats so fast sparks fly from his knife and fork.' Well, anybody who can pull apart a C-14, remove the cam(s) to swap even one shim, reassemble the bike to a fully finished, correctly running and looking state would do more than just make sparks- that person would have to have a wand absolutely full of magic.
Brian
I wish there was a flat rate guide for the C14. It would be nice to know how long the Dealer is given for each specific job.
Like this ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-Yamaha-Service-Flat-Rate-Manual-Scooter-Motorcycle-/120494250099
-----------
My guess is that a good dealer can pull off all the stuff to get to the valves, do the value adjust, put everything back in place in about 2 - 3 hours.
In the California Bay Area the hourly rate seems to be about $85 dollars and hour. (Most shops post the hourly rate in the service area).
So my guess in labor $150 - $250 + parts. Likely if you would add an oil / filter change when you open the engine and as long as the have more than 10k miles might as well do the plugs.
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This was kdm's reply to Tarheelbob's post:
Yeah, my local shop wants $650 to do the complete job,including plugs ! So ,where can I get a set of Freds videos?
Guess it's time to give it a try myself.
I sent this PM to kdm:
I have a set of Fred's C14 repair videos that I will never use. Complete, in case and ready to ship. You can have them for $60.00 and I'll pay the postage.
kdm promptly replied to the PM stating that he wanted them and requested method of payment. I sent PM with requested information but have yet to hear from him. PM's don't always reach their destination so I'm posting this reply. If you still want the videos you'll need to answer soon as I am about to begin a long vacation.
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Man, have you seen this? Just look at page 3 of the tread. HELL NO! NOT DOING IT. I don't care how much, ain't gona touch it.
Ok Boys - Time to man up and face the realities of the situation:
1 – You own a motorcycle that’s a PIA to service; not particularly difficult, just tedious and requiring a bit of precision and a fair amount of time.
2 – NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE cares as much about the proper maintenance and operation of your bike as you do.
3 – Due to #1 and #2 the probability that a valve check and adjust-to-center, and all that is involved to perform this work, will be done competently, with good attention to detail, is very low….at any price/labor rate.
Your choices are:
- Do the work right yourself
- Put up with high shop prices and poor workmanship
- Get an easier/cheaper bike to maintain.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled whining…..
Courtney in St. Louis
The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those who have not got it.
- George Bernard Shaw
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The good thing about going to the same shop for 20 years is you get to know the mechanics. If the shop does not have a large turn-over I would say it is safe to trust the job to them. If the shop does not keep a mechanic for longer than a year or so, do the job yourself or find a better shop. I know the guys at my shop and they know a lot more than I do now. And they have a lift. And the shop is spotless, unlike my rather crowded garage covered in Golden Retriever hair.
3.2 hours? That must be time not including removal of all the junk surrounding the valve cover. 3.2 hours would be a good time on a naked bike.
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I paid $325 or $350... can't remember now. I also had them pull the plugs while they were in there too, since they had all the plastic off. That saved me a few bills since the plastic was already off. They swapped shims with ones they had on hand, no charge for those.
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$350!! That would almost make it worth the ride from Montana. Is that the ride it in - ride it out price?
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$350!! That would almost make it worth the ride from Montana. Is that the ride it in - ride it out price?
Yes. Dropped it off on Friday... was ready the following week on Thursday. They did the valves, plugs... also had new rubber put on, oil and rear drive serviced too.
The bike has to sit, be cold, before they rip it apart for the vavles. I also had to make an appointment, make sure they had the time to do it.
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Yes. Dropped it off on Friday... was ready the following week on Thursday. They did the valves, plugs... also had new rubber put on, oil and rear drive serviced too.
The bike has to sit, be cold, before they rip it apart for the vavles. I also had to make an appointment, make sure they had the time to do it.
Sounds like they took it as a "back burner" job. I was talking to the owner of a local shop about his rates, and he says the bigger the job, the lower his shop rate. If they could have the bike for several days or even a week, then they can work on it between "emergencies". Plus, if a guy can focus on one big job for longer, he's more productive too.
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Sounds like they took it as a "back burner" job. I was talking to the owner of a local shop about his rates, and he says the bigger the job, the lower his shop rate. If they could have the bike for several days or even a week, then they can work on it between "emergencies". Plus, if a guy can focus on one big job for longer, he's more productive too.
Yeah... IIRC, they had something come in that needed to get fixed in a hurry while my bike was being worked on... a Mule 4x4, something along those lines. Was fine with me since I was willing to wait a week anywho... I knew if I did it myself, it would have taken longer... much longer. :o
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Agreed- the 3.2 hour estimate is ridiculous even though it is what Kawasaki calls for, at least according to my dealer. I would not think a dealer would minimize the amount of time estimated to do the job. ?? I think the basic problem is that the flat rate times in the service manual are used to set the price for warranty work, and the mfgs. would all lean toward the low end, perhaps even the ridiculous end, of the possible schedule.
There are absolutely good dealers with good, maybe even great, service people available. It may not be the majority but they are around. My local dealer has had the same crew for many years and I would trust them to do anything / everything to one of my motorcycles.
I spend a little time on the FJR forum and find it very interesting that while the C-14 has the reputation for being difficult to do a valve lash check and adjust on (and I believe that is true), the prices the Feejer owners pay is similar to the C-14 prices it seems. There are a lot of $400 to $600 valve lash charges being reported of FJRs but very few in the $300 range.
Brian
The good thing about going to the same shop for 20 years is you get to know the mechanics. If the shop does not have a large turn-over I would say it is safe to trust the job to them. If the shop does not keep a mechanic for longer than a year or so, do the job yourself or find a better shop. I know the guys at my shop and they know a lot more than I do now. And they have a lift. And the shop is spotless, unlike my rather crowded garage covered in Golden Retriever hair.
3.2 hours? That must be time not including removal of all the junk surrounding the valve cover. 3.2 hours would be a good time on a naked bike.
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Ok Boys - Time to man up and face the realities of the situation:
1 – You own a motorcycle that’s a PIA to service; not particularly difficult, just tedious and requiring a bit of precision and a fair amount of time.
2 – NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE cares as much about the proper maintenance and operation of your bike as you do.
3 – Due to #1 and #2 the probability that a valve check and adjust-to-center, and all that is involved to perform this work, will be done competently, with good attention to detail, is very low….at any price/labor rate.
Your choices are:
- Do the work right yourself
- Put up with high shop prices and poor workmanship
- Get an easier/cheaper bike to maintain.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled whining…..
Courtney in St. Louis
+1 Courtney, from a fellow St. Louis-ian. Couldn't agree more.
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Just to stir the pot ....
I would guess there are 4 basic types of motorcycle owners;
1. Buy new and sell before bike hits 30,000 miles
(so likely would never have to do any services outside the basics: engine oil, air filter, tires, maybe battery and rear drive spline lube)
2. Buy new and keep the bike for 45,000 or more
(so likely would need all the basic and major services
3. Buy used with low miles and good condition and keep for as long as you are having fun and service is not a PITA
(so likely would due the basic services shortly after you get the bike and do the major services as the mile/age/use dictate)
4. Buy used with high miles and average condition (Beater biker or frugal owner)
(this is the river boat gambler guy would got a good deal and either feels lucky and or plans to do both the basic and major services as needed)
My guess is that #1 and #3 may never have to worry or due a value / throttle body / front fork service unless they have $$ or extra time and skill
Also my guess is that #2 and #4 will need at sometime to undertake or pay for such major services
If the above grouping makes sense it would be interesting to see where most people in this forum fall into
(Given some of the poll result suggest about 50% of owners will do many of the Major Type Services themselves)
I am #3
Would be more fun to be Number 6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner
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I guess I am a five.
Buy new and make sure the maintenance is done and ride it till the only person who would buy it would be Fred Sanford.
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Hey SHEROB would you mind posting the name of that shop? I'm in Ft. Collins and always looking for options.
Thanks
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I have a friend that works for the medical site of Michell (Of the old CAR Flat rate book fame)
Seems we recall that often the flat rate time is related to only the task called for and not all the prep to do the task.
Sort of like...
Water pump take 2 hours flat rate
but as you need to add the removal of the radiator + to get to the water pump
and Radiator removal and install 1 hour flat rate
So a water pump flat rate is 3 hours ??? Does that make any sense?
For those that have seem the Kawasaki Flat Rate Book ... how is it set up?
Thanks in advance
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Hey SHEROB would you mind posting the name of that shop? I'm in Ft. Collins and always looking for options.
Thanks
Give MotoAdventure a call in Loveland.
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I have a friend that works for the medical site of Michell (Of the old CAR Flat rate book fame)
Seems we recall that often the flat rate time is related to only the task called for and not all the prep to do the task.
Sort of like...
Water pump take 2 hours flat rate
but as you need to add the removal of the radiator + to get to the water pump
and Radiator removal and install 1 hour flat rate
So a water pump flat rate is 3 hours ??? Does that make any sense?
For those that have seem the Kawasaki Flat Rate Book ... how is it set up?
Thanks in advance
If I went into a dealer and the flat rate for R&R on the water pump was 2 hours, That is all I am going to pay. Removal of the radiator is included in the flat rate.
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Sherob, can you tell me where you had it done? Was this in the Denver area? Never mind, just saw the post about having it done in Loveland.
Yes. Dropped it off on Friday... was ready the following week on Thursday. They did the valves, plugs... also had new rubber put on, oil and rear drive serviced too.
The bike has to sit, be cold, before they rip it apart for the vavles. I also had to make an appointment, make sure they had the time to do it.
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Think about having your plugs done while they are in there... air filter too maybe... save some $$$ and time. ;)
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mine is in surgery now, two day turn. work done is a tb sync, plugs, air filter, valve adjust, stem bearings lubed, fork oil replaced, all suspension removed and lubed, both brakes and clutch fluid replaced, coolant i think, new rear 023 tire and lube splines with honda moly.
cost is in the 650-700 including the tire. not too bad i think. my guy is super attentive to detail, and i have chased him over 5000 miles already this year around the country side. bike is an 09 with like 19000 miles since June of 10. the thought was pay now, or pay later. i would rather pay now and ride later.
http://riverszzr.webs.com/ (http://riverszzr.webs.com/) is my guy
Joel
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Just had mine 2010 done at 16,000 miles. The dealer charged me $292.50 for 4.5 hours of labor and didn't charge me for any parts or other misc. shop supplies (the intake No. 4 valve was the only one out of spec so they shimmed it). I think that was a fair price - so much I asked them to do an oil change to save me some time this weekend. (and I hate paying the dealer to do something as simple as an oil change).
-David
Athens, GA