Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => Accessories and Modifications - C10 => Topic started by: Uglydog56 on June 02, 2011, 10:25:24 PM
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I drove it and everything! On the first trip, the handling was less than exemplary, plus the speedo didn't work. I got home and found I hadn't set the sensor close enough and the front tire was only at 25psi. Back out with 40 in the front and it was another story. Previously I had progressive springs and 15w oil. Now the bike is much more composed over bumps, yet has no dive when grabbing a handful of brake. That plus the C14 rear shock has really made this a new motorcycle. I didn't get real aggressive as it's a little wet out and the front tire is brand new, but it feels very stable and relatively ease to maneuver. I have some 1" bar risers on the way; once they are installed I may drop the front forks about 5mm and see if it hurries up the turn-in a little. I've been riding my CB400 to work in the mean time and it has spoiled me a little with its instinctive handling.
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Rick,
What tires are you using? I have Shinko 011's right now, and the turn in seems effortless. Are you using the C14 shock without a lowering link? I have a ZZR shock on the back, so the rear is not as high as with the C14, so I would think your turn in would be even quicker than mine. I recommend riding it a little before dropping the front, JMHO.
BTW, great to hear it's done, when do we get to see pictures? :D 8) :thumbs:
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enquiring minds want to know ....
What's the fork offset with the ZX-9 setup (distance from stem centerline to fork tube centerline)?
How 'bout the maximum static fork length (distance from top of head tube/bottom of top triple to the axle centerline with the bike on the wheels but no rider)?
Bottom line, wondering if the ZX-9 setup has less trail than stock and how much. Yep, trail is maximum with forks lowest in the triple and rear ride height also affects trail.
Thanks!
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I have roadsmarts, 120/70 front and 170/60 rear. Not my first choice, but the rear was literally brand new, so I'm going to wear them out. 2" lowering link in rear, which changes the rake quite a bit. I figure with the 170 tire and C14 shock that puts me about 1" lower than stock. When I had the 17" rear but still had the stock front on I had dropped the forks in the clamps until the dust seals were 1/4" away from the lower triple at full compress to get it to turn in adequately. It is supposed to be beautiful all weekend, so I'm going to scrub in the tires and go relearn the bike.. The combination of untested parts, new tire and wet roads made me somewhat apprehensive yesterday which was undoubtedly a factor in all this as well.
AFAIK, the trail was around 4.4" vice 4.8" stock? Foggy memories from old board? Haven't measured length but I thought someone said it was 30.38, same as zrx front? I'll have to dig around the zrxoa forum where Gary got his info from and see what I can find.
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Gary, I completely screwed up the front fender while attempting to clear it, plus my fenda extenda came in, so you're going to have to wait for pictures until I sand and repaint the pieces. My comment on the looks is that it lresembles an ST1100 much more than a BMW now. The front fender's not even going to match when I'm done, but it should be close enough for government work. I'm painting the fender GM emerald green metallic over semi-flat black to darken it up. It isn't dark enough but it will do until I paint the whole bike this winter.
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enquiring minds want to know ....
What's the fork offset with the ZX-9 setup (distance from stem centerline to fork tube centerline)?
How 'bout the maximum static fork length (distance from top of head tube/bottom of top triple to the axle centerline with the bike on the wheels but no rider)?
Bottom line, wondering if the ZX-9 setup has less trail than stock and how much. Yep, trail is maximum with forks lowest in the triple and rear ride height also affects trail.
Thanks!
Alan,
Bottom line, the trail with the ZX9 front end is less than the stock C10. Rick has the numbers right, I calculated the new trail to be about 4.4", while the C10 is 4.8". Stock offset is about 1.6", and the ZX9 offset is about 1.4". I measured the ZX9 fork length to be 30.38", and my Connie was 30.88" from center of axle to top of triple. I modified the ZX9 top triple to put the top at the same location as stock, relative to the steering head, so there is a .5" difference in installed fork length. With the smaller tire, the front end is about 1" lower, which is where the decrease in trail comes from. In comparison, the ZRX front end has an offset of about 1.2", with the same fork length as the ZX9, so the trail ends up being more with the ZRX setup on the Connie. Having ridden my bike with the ZX9 front end and a Connie with the ZRX front end, I can say that the ZX9 front end definitely steers quicker, which confirms the trail numbers. Both setups work really well, but after riding the ZRX setup, I came away happy that I chose to do what I did.
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Thanks Rick and Gary for the info, all interesting and useful as I continue to play with the Connie.
Rick, jumping between the C10 and your CB400 must be similar to the contrast I have ... see my sigline ;D
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Heck, I wanta see some Pictures ::) :thumbs:
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Heck, I wanta see some Pictures ::) :thumbs:
Hopefully I'm not stealing Rick's thunder, but I took a few pictures today while dodging raindrops. I had posted some photos on the old forum from when I finished the project, but the thread went away with the crash. Besides, I've made some updates since then.
(http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/48188/2485533350101812480S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/46867/2478057930101812480S425x425Q85.jpg)
(http://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/46274/2441212220101812480S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/48398/2817177930101812480S425x425Q85.jpg)
(http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/45208/2186483110101812480S425x425Q85.jpg)
I hope Rick will give us some photos soon, I really want see how the Mean Streak front wheel and the instrument panel worked out. 8) :thumbs:
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Okay, here are pics. I didn't get the front fender fixed, it's too sunny outside. Please note I'm not Gary or Jim Miller or Bergmen - the bike is dirty and I've got some fit/finish to deal with after The Great Motorcycle Trip (which commences in two weeks). But, on the whole, I'm satisfied. I sunk the forks 10mm today and now the bike is awesome! I contend that since I've lowered it about an inch in the rear, I needed to lower some in the front to match. The bike is so stable, so compliant, and will put a peg on the ground so easily and drama-free it isn't even funny. This is the first bike I've ever ridden with cartridge forks, and I can't believe the difference. I have the preload all the way out (no preload), and about halfway on the bottom one and 1.5 turns from full hard on the top one. I THINK bottom is compression and top is rebound, but don't quote me.
(http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/Connie%20pics/DSCN2565.jpg) (http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/Connie%20pics/DSCN2566.jpg) (http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/Connie%20pics/DSCN2567.jpg) (http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/Connie%20pics/DSCN2568.jpg) (http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/Connie%20pics/DSCN2569.jpg) (http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/Connie%20pics/DSCN2570.jpg)
I still need the cover for the center of the handlebars, or maybe polish the upper. I put 1" bar risers on it, and now it looks like a conglomeration of crap. I'm going to get 1.6's and have less pieces.
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Very nice, great job, Rick! Your description of the suspension action and handling match my impressions exactly. Rock solid stability, yet able to lean as far as you want with little effort. You'll come to appreciate it even more as you continue to ride it. It makes sense now that you would drop the front a little to get to the same place I am, since I have the ZZR shock without a link, and my rear is raised slightly more. I really like the instrument panel, too, and the front wheel looks like it was made to be there.
You're correct the bottom adjuster is compression and the the top is rebound. I'm at 1 click out from full soft on compression and about midway on rebound. I can actually feel the difference between a couple clicks, so the adjustments are actually meaningful, unlike some suspension I've had.
Enjoy the ride, sounds like you've got a good one coming up. Once again, nice job! 8) :thumbs:
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Just got back from riding around the Hood Canal - a good ride to set things up. This was two up with luggage and the trunk. I ended up 1 click softer on rebound up front, and went from 1 3/4 all the way to 1 turn from full hard on the rear shock, and ended up at 9 clicks preload on the rear. This is with 40r/42r in the roadsmarts. I determined at this point that the handling was nearly perfect. The local police officer concurred with me assessment and charged me 196 bucks for testing performance on his roads :( Still a great ride however.
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nice job rick, looks great. i really like the look with the matching wheels. so is it just the three of us now or are there more out there?
sorry i haven't been checking in much lately. i just found out tonight that the old site is gone... :'(
also, don't polish the upper triple. i made that mistake. i put a lot of effort into it and got it looking like chrome. when the sun is high in the sky and you get the right angle while riding down the road, that thing will blind you. i found a nice carbon fiber cover for the triple on fleabay. i haven't installed it yet but if you're interested i can dig up the link for you.
(http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/43397/2079887630106632281S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2079887630106632281zvKDaa)
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I rode the bike pictured above (hey Tom!) at the RWTW up in the north Ga mountains. what I came away with was that it was real easy to ride it fast - I've been trying to keep my bike "sleeper" but I'm starting to think about this zx9 conversion a bit harder... Steve
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Steve, nobody but a couple of us weirdo cogger's even know what the front end is supposed to look like. I probably have the most modified bike in the parking lot at work (probably 40+ there of multiple shapes and sizes) and don't get a single comment except on the exceptional number of driving lights and a few speculations on my eyesight and/or sanity.
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Hey, Tom, welcome back!
Steve, I concur with Rick, don't think, just do it! I know you want your wheels to match and stuff, but you can barely see the wheel anyway with those big rotors. :stirpot:
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So if I do this, i already have the 320's and the 4 pots. what else do I need, top and lower tripple, forks, wheel, speedo drive, fender? how'd yall go about sourcing this stuff, a little here, a little there?
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Steve,
Here's my list of the required parts from the old forum. I know you wouldn't need all the parts, but I've included everything for the sake of completeness:
- Forks from a ZX9, model year 1994 thru 1997 model (B1 thru B4).
- Upper and lower triple clamps from a 1994 thru 1995 ZX7, or a lower triple clamp from a 1994 thru 1997 ZX9 and the upper triple clamp from a 1994 thru 2001 ZX7
- Wheel, axle, speedo drive, and 320 mm rotors from a donor compatible with the ZX9
- Calipers compatible with the ZX9. For the 1994 thru 1996 zx9 these would be 4 piston Tokicos or Nissins, and for the 1997 they would be 6 piston Tokicos.
- Some way of mounting handlebars to the ZX7 top triple clamp, since the ZX9 used clip-on handlebars, which would not clear the Concours tank. I bought some dirt bike handlebar risers that I adapted to the top triple clamp.
- A fender from a ZX9 or ZX7, or an adapted fender.
Here is the list of donors that cross over or are compatible with the ZX9 front end.
The following bikes have interchangeable brakes/ wheels/ axle/ speedo:
ZX7 1993-1996 1997-2003 had different calipers but otherwise compatible
ZX9B 1994-1996 1997 had different calipers but otherwise compatible
ZX11D 1993-2001
Wheels/ axle/ speedo from the following will fit:
ZZR1200
ZRX1100/ 1200
Rotors:
Ninja ZX-750 J1/J2/L1-L3 (ZX-7) 91-95
Ninja ZX 7R (ZX750 K1/K2/M1/M2) 91-95
Ninja ZX 7R (ZX 750 P1-P8) 96-03
Ninja ZX-7RR (ZX750 N1/N2) 96-99
ZX-9R B1-B4 Ninja 94-97
ZX-9R F1/F2 Ninja 02-03
ZX 1100 D1-D9 Ninja 93-01
ZX 12 R A1/A2/B1/B2 00-03
ZX 1200 C1/C2/C3/C4 (ZZR 1200) 02-05
VN 1500 P1/P2 Vulcan Mean Streak 02-03
VZ 1600 K4/K5 04-05
VN 1600 B1/B2/B6F/B7F/B7FA/B8F/B8FA 04-08
Fender from 1994-1997 ZX9 or 1993-2003 ZX7, though the ZX7 fender will require some minor fabrication to fit.
Your GSXR/ ZZR calipers will work, but they use a smaller bolt than the ZX9 calipers, so you would probably want to make some sleeves to make up the difference.
You can pretty much source things in whatever way works the best for you. The most cost effective way is to source a complete front end from a ZX9. Then the only thing left is the top triple and your handlebar arrangement. I bought my forks with the lower triple included, but sourced everthing else piecemeal. Again, it depends on whether you have contacts, or are at the mercy of eBay.
I've got a lot more info, but hopefully that will get you started. ;)
HTH,
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To put the mean streak front wheel on a zx-9 front end, (this should work for zrx front end as well) you put a zx-12 spacer on the left and machine 3mm off the existing zx-9 right side spacer. An electronic speedo is required. Flip the rotors so they angle in. I just shimmed the caliper in with precision washers, I will get a measurement for the bushings that are going to replace them. 2 70mm 10mmx1.25x50mm and 2 10mmx1.25x45mm allen head bolts to attach the calipers (I just ordered four longer ones, but the bottom two are really close to the rotor). I already had braided lines on my stock connie brakes and they transferred over. There you go steve, the recipe for matching wheels!
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Rick,
I would like to install the Mean Streak front wheel as it would match my rear wheel. They look great on your bike.
I have already done so much to the front of my Connie and it seems like i would be going backwards. I already have 320mm rotors and 4 pots and sonic springs with emulators, fork brace ...
I guess I am on the fence right now and need coaxing.
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I rode the bike pictured above (hey Tom!) at the RWTW up in the north Ga mountains. what I came away with was that it was real easy to ride it fast - I've been trying to keep my bike "sleeper" but I'm starting to think about this zx9 conversion a bit harder... Steve
Steve, in addition to the 4-pots and 320mm rotors, your website says you have the following front suspension mods:
Front - Shortened stock springs, with Cartridge Emulators, 15 WT oil and Murph's fork brace. Currently an Avon Storm 110/70-18 tire is fitted on a stock 3" rim.
Is that where things stand today on Shoodaben?
Maybe similar to what Rick is asking, I'm curious to know the 'baseline' for your feeling that the ZX-9 suspension is maybe a worthwhile upgrade?
Given that you already have equivalent brakes, the areas of improvement left are the 17x3.5 wheel and the ZX-9 springing/damping above the emulator-equipped OEM fork (I shouldn't forget the previously mentioned reduction in trail).
From my reading of Gary's excellent posts/tech pages, the fork leg step involves the biggest set of challenges and likely incremental cost in this progression.
Any of y'all that have ridden these bikes care to offer an opinion .... if we slowly step-up to the springs/emulators, then caliper/rotors, then small wheel .... does that last BIG step to the ZX fork legs make that big a difference?
"Think and answer your own question, Alan: How close are aftermarket springs and emulators to a fork with designed-in separately adjustable compression and rebound damping? Doh ??? "
edit question - I'm understanding it is possible to put the ZX-9 forks on the late C10 while retaining the stock cable-drive speedo (maybe not a perfectly calibrated drive at the wheel, but reasonably close), correct?
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Alan,
You are correct, the mechanical speedometer drive is retained when the ZX wheel and speedo drive are used. My speedo is just as accurate with the ZX speedo drive as it was with the C10 front end.
I asked the same questions about bang for the buck when I was contemplating the fork upgrade. Now that I've done it, IMO, it is not possible to get the level of feel and responsiveness with the stock C10 front end that you get with the ZX9 and ZRX swaps. For the ZX9 setup, there are both geometric and structural advantages. Because of Kawasaki's design decisions for the ZX9, the fork length and offset end up giving trail numbers for the C10 that improve steering quickness beyond what you can get with raised fork tubes and a smaller wheel, yet still provide excellent stability. Something they weren't trying to do, but it worked out just the same. The structural stiffness of the fork tubes and larger axle provides feedback and responsiveness that I could not get with my properly sprung and braced stock fork. It really is like you are holding the ends of the axle when you steer. My point is, the stock Connie fork can be made to work very well, but the larger cartridge forks are a big step forward, even from Steve's well-modded units. I know there are bikes that handle better than mine, but I can't imagine my C10 handling any better than it does now. If we ever cross paths, I would be more than happy to let you try mine and see for yourself. 8)
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While I didn't have the big brakes, but I did have progressive springs, 15w oil, a KB fork brace, HH pads, braided lines, and an Avon roadrider tyre that sticks very well on my stock front end. While that isn't the best best setup, it certainly isn't stock, and wasn't that bad. I'm telling you, the difference is significant and measurable. And I've just started dialing it in.
I am going to be arriving in Amarillo on the 25th of June and staying the 26th at a friend's house and leaving the morning of the 27th. There's your opportunity to try one out.
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Yeah, as indicated by my italics self-editorial, I realized while typing my question that the forks probably offer a significant improvement.
Thanks again for all the great info and innovation you guys have shared.
Rick, thanks for the offer, enjoy your visit to the panhandle, try to stay cool, but I'll leave that corner of the state to you in late June 8)
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A few pics of fitting a zx9 triple #1...
1-stop fitted
2-the problem
3- clearance for the faring frame
4- up in there
The zx9 stem is cut off proud, I dont recall 3/16"? - it provides a bearing/ seal holder. The zx9 stem is bored/machined for a press fit for the zg stem. I retained the circlip, so a counerbore was cut to clear. Fit was to match the zg stem height, it is well up in there... Red loctite was suggested when we pressed the stem in by the wily old machinist that did the work. I used a zx7 top triple. There is a boss on the under side that needs to be cut down at the machine shop. I did the fitting for the key switch with a rotory tool chucked in a drill.
HTH if you are considering the mod.
KenE
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I wanted to post these pics of the zx9 install before I lose em...
1- fitting key switch
2-zx7 top machined flat
3- handlebar fab. Pit bike risers for 7/8 bars from ebay/ zrx handlebar cap from same. Ive got helibars, so that completes my picture.
HTH.
KenE
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To put the mean streak front wheel on a zx-9 front end, (this should work for zrx front end as well) you put a zx-12 spacer on the left and machine 3mm off the existing zx-9 right side spacer. An electronic speedo is required. Flip the rotors so they angle in. I just shimmed the caliper in with precision washers, I will get a measurement for the bushings that are going to replace them. 2 70mm 10mmx1.25x50mm and 2 10mmx1.25x45mm allen head bolts to attach the calipers (I just ordered four longer ones, but the bottom two are really close to the rotor). I already had braided lines on my stock connie brakes and they transferred over. There you go steve, the recipe for matching wheels!
Rick,
How did you set up your tach and speedometer? It is hard to tell from your picture.
Thanks,
Glenn
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(http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/Connie%20pics/DSCN2570.jpg)
That is a Koso RX-1N on the left, cheapy Tom-Tom GPS on the right. I got a spare plastic from SISF and glassed in the hole where the stock gauge cluster went. I soldered up an adaptor harness and plugged the gage panel into my stock wiring harness. The only things I had to add outside of the short adaptor harness was a separate memory power line from aux fuse panel for the digital, and I couldn't use the factory temp wire - Koso sensor is 2 wire so I had to string that. Although it did screw right into the hole for the kawi temp sensor. Probably a spendy way to get your speedo back, but it works well. I had to epoxy 3 magnets on the front wheel and mount a sensor behind the fork for the speedo. I think I have a pic of that too, it's pretty discrete.
(http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/Connie%20pics/DSCN2568-1.jpg)
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wow, some nice work going on there.
Late to the party, but i just saw Centex's question about my take on comparing the hopped up stock front end to the zx9. I've ridden all 3 of the viable front setups, modded stock, zrx, and the zx9. I found the zrx front end to feel the same as mine, with the springs/ tuned emulators/ fork brace / avon storm. The zx9 was really a diffenernt animal, still sucked up the bumps better and razor sharp handling. Easy to ride fast in the mountains, very light steering input needed. Now that particular bike did have the rear end way high with a c-14 shock on a stock rocker, and I'm sure that played into it also. Still, Alan answered his own question, the zx9 is the superior setup of the 3, IMO. the way I'm currently thinking though, my next big suspension upgrade may be attached to a c-14. :o Steve
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Steve,
Here's my list of the required parts from the old forum. I know you wouldn't need all the parts, but I've included everything for the sake of completeness:
- Forks from a ZX9, model year 1994 thru 1997 model (B1 thru B4).
- Upper and lower triple clamps from a 1994 thru 1995 ZX7, or a lower triple clamp from a 1994 thru 1997 ZX9 and the upper triple clamp from a 1994 thru 2001 ZX7
- Wheel, axle, speedo drive, and 320 mm rotors from a donor compatible with the ZX9
- Calipers compatible with the ZX9. For the 1994 thru 1996 zx9 these would be 4 piston Tokicos or Nissins, and for the 1997 they would be 6 piston Tokicos.
- Some way of mounting handlebars to the ZX7 top triple clamp, since the ZX9 used clip-on handlebars, which would not clear the Concours tank. I bought some dirt bike handlebar risers that I adapted to the top triple clamp.
- A fender from a ZX9 or ZX7, or an adapted fender.
Here is the list of donors that cross over or are compatible with the ZX9 front end.
The following bikes have interchangeable brakes/ wheels/ axle/ speedo:
ZX7 1993-1996 1997-2003 had different calipers but otherwise compatible
ZX9B 1994-1996 1997 had different calipers but otherwise compatible
ZX11D 1993-2001
Wheels/ axle/ speedo from the following will fit:
ZZR1200
ZRX1100/ 1200
Rotors:
Ninja ZX-750 J1/J2/L1-L3 (ZX-7) 91-95
Ninja ZX 7R (ZX750 K1/K2/M1/M2) 91-95
Ninja ZX 7R (ZX 750 P1-P8) 96-03
Ninja ZX-7RR (ZX750 N1/N2) 96-99
ZX-9R B1-B4 Ninja 94-97
ZX-9R F1/F2 Ninja 02-03
ZX 1100 D1-D9 Ninja 93-01
ZX 12 R A1/A2/B1/B2 00-03
ZX 1200 C1/C2/C3/C4 (ZZR 1200) 02-05
VN 1500 P1/P2 Vulcan Mean Streak 02-03
VZ 1600 K4/K5 04-05
VN 1600 B1/B2/B6F/B7F/B7FA/B8F/B8FA 04-08
Fender from 1994-1997 ZX9 or 1993-2003 ZX7, though the ZX7 fender will require some minor fabrication to fit.
Your GSXR/ ZZR calipers will work, but they use a smaller bolt than the ZX9 calipers, so you would probably want to make some sleeves to make up the difference.
You can pretty much source things in whatever way works the best for you. The most cost effective way is to source a complete front end from a ZX9. Then the only thing left is the top triple and your handlebar arrangement. I bought my forks with the lower triple included, but sourced everthing else piecemeal. Again, it depends on whether you have contacts, or are at the mercy of eBay.
I've got a lot more info, but hopefully that will get you started. ;)
HTH,
Are you able to use the steering lock?
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I personally did not attempt to retain the steering lock functional as I have never used one ever. I think someone did on the old board but I don't recall the details.
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Are you able to use the steering lock?
Like Uglydog, I didn't make any effort to keep the steering lock, but I know of one person who attached a tab to the top of the fairing stay for the lock to engage on. You would have to do something similar, but it is possible.
HTH,