Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: sdumontsr on May 17, 2014, 05:49:01 PM
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I have a 2012 C14 and when it's cold out, say 45 degrees or less, the bike starts fine and idles around 1500 rpm. Then after maybe 15 seconds the idle will drop until it stalls. Then when restarting the engine has a hard time turning over and will finally catch but slowly revs until i give it some gas. (sounds like battery is weak) but I have tested the battery and its fully charged. Once it starts warming up it will only idle about 800 rpm until I have driven it for half an hour. On the way to work it has stalled numerous times when braking for a stop. When temp is above 50 no issues. Dealer does not know what to make of it. Now that it's warm weather again can't proof it to the dealer. Any one else experience this?
Steve
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It sounds like you may have to raise the warm idle a bit.
C-14's typically drop off the fast idle well before they are really warm and the dip in RPM you describe is pretty normal for this bike. We cannot control the fast idle (well, we can but we are not supposed to do that) so the only thing left is the normal or warm idle after the fast idle cam is completely out of the way. This engine, like most Japanese in-line fours, will idle reliably at a lower speed than it really should be set to so I suspect yours may be set a tad on the low side. Try raising the idle to 1,150- 1,200 RPM when fully warm and see if that cures the problem..... next year when it gets cold again.
Brian
I have a 2012 C14 and when it's cold out, say 45 degrees or less, the bike starts fine and idles around 1500 rpm. Then after maybe 15 seconds the idle will drop until it stalls. Then when restarting the engine has a hard time turning over and will finally catch but slowly revs until i give it some gas. (sounds like battery is weak) but I have tested the battery and its fully charged. Once it starts warming up it will only idle about 800 rpm until I have driven it for half an hour. On the way to work it has stalled numerous times when braking for a stop. When temp is above 50 no issues. Dealer does not know what to make of it. Now that it's warm weather again can't proof it to the dealer. Any one else experience this?
Steve
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(sounds like battery is weak) but I have tested the battery and its fully charged.
Plus: Fully charged doesn't mean the battery is "good"
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Connections, connections, connections. They must be tight/bright or it ain't right.
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Connections, connections, connections. They must be tight/bright or it ain't right.
That has to be the booze talking again.
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Makes sense, though. I went through my connections yesterday as I was changing the oil. Used one of those dremel attachments (wire brush) to clean them up. I don't know if it's a 'battery brand' thing but I have a Motobatt that I got from Murph several years ago that I haven't found any loose connections on it unlike the OEM that would loosen if you got out of eye sight. They have four connections (two positive, two negative) and use an Allen key screw that you can really tighten. I'll say it again and again. These bikes are super touchy when it comes to battery voltage. And I'll say the idle should be about 1200 warm if you want to avoid stalling out.
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Well, his symptoms are not really pointing toward battery connections or anything being wrong at all. Just the nature of the beast. Kawasaki cuts the high idle a bit too fast and when the bike is not yet warm, it idles at a lower speed than it will when fully warmed up. So there is an RPM valley so to speak that he is falling into. Raising the warm idle should cure it.
Brian
Makes sense, though. I went through my connections yesterday as I was changing the oil. Used one of those dremel attachments (wire brush) to clean them up. I don't know if it's a 'battery brand' thing but I have a Motobatt that I got from Murph several years ago that I haven't found any loose connections on it unlike the OEM that would loosen if you got out of eye sight. They have four connections (two positive, two negative) and use an Allen key screw that you can really tighten. I'll say it again and again. These bikes are super touchy when it comes to battery voltage. And I'll say the idle should be about 1200 warm if you want to avoid stalling out.
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Then when restarting the engine has a hard time turning over and will finally catch but slowly revs until i give it some gas. (sounds like battery is weak) but I have tested the battery and its fully charged.
Steve
And even if the hard starting has nothing to do with the electrical system, it pays to check those connections once in awhile.
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And even if the hard starting has nothing to do with the electrical system, it pays to check those connections once in awhile.
in 2009 we had a fellow show up at a ride (Natural bridge), who was having the exact same issues. "Checked" the batt, and it had correct voltage... bumped the idle up a bit for him,we looked at the charging volts on the display, and they were up in the 14v range.. but I suggested he remove and clean the terminals... all of them, as the bike really didn't sound like it was getting full cranking amps when starting.
After the idle adjust, it seemed better, but he pulled the batt and cleaned everything as I told him to the next day, with tools I supplied to him.
The bike started perfectly cold, and the idle was up to 1500 rpm, after we had set it the day before to 1150...
I think if the cables are not clean, the voltage drop may effect the warm air sensor, and subsequently the idle speed.
JMHO.
YMMV
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I hear what you are saying but still don't buy into it: the electronics on the C-14 (and most of the rest of the world) are 5 volts so a 'bad' battery at, say, 10 volts would be wonderful regarding the electronics.
Nothing wrong with cleaning and tightening the battery cables, or even doing it on a regular basis. But I think we want to be wary of that being a cure- all for anything / everything that may be or go wrong with a C-14. In this very specific case, I believe the OP probably has the mechanical idle set a bit low and bringing that up will cure all of his RPM problems in the transition period between fast idle and a fully warm engine.
And finally, of course the fast idle can be adjusted even though it is "not adjustable". One merely needs the fortitude to break through all that tamper proof paint and tweak the fast idle screw at the very top of the throttle plate linkage on the left hand side of the engine. Of course that will change not only the timing of the fast idle and how quickly it backs off but also the peak RPM as well. It is a package deal. Unless of course one wants to re- profile the fast idle cam and then a person could do anything desired. But personally, I would leave that alone, bump the idle up to 1,150- 1,200 RPM and see if that does not cure all.
Brian
in 2009 we had a fellow show up at a ride (Natural bridge), who was having the exact same issues. "Checked" the batt, and it had correct voltage... bumped the idle up a bit for him,we looked at the charging volts on the display, and they were up in the 14v range.. but I suggested he remove and clean the terminals... all of them, as the bike really didn't sound like it was getting full cranking amps when starting.
After the idle adjust, it seemed better, but he pulled the batt and cleaned everything as I told him to the next day, with tools I supplied to him.
The bike started perfectly cold, and the idle was up to 1500 rpm, after we had set it the day before to 1150...
I think if the cables are not clean, the voltage drop may effect the warm air sensor, and subsequently the idle speed.
JMHO.
YMMV
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Why would it start slow, Brian? Not trying to 'start' something but I just gotta know.
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Relax Jim, I know you too well to think you would be staring anything. I understand your question completely....
Starting slow is a sign of insufficient current: usually a weak battery but rarely it is due to something like a frayed battery cable. But usually slow starting is not a sign of bad battery contact. Loose battery terminals / corroded battery terminals usually result in the behavior perfectly described in the OP's first post: the system lights up and looks to be fine until the starter button is pressed and then everything electrical just quits. That is because the loose / corroded terminal(s) can pass 2 or 3 amps that the bike will draw with just the ign. turned on and running lights, etc., but cannot possibly supply the 100 or more amps that the starter will draw. So when that heavy draw comes along, it burns away the tiny connection that the loose / corroded terminal(s) had in the first place and actually breaks the connection with the battery. Unfortunately, jostle the bike a bit with no current needed and the terminals will again make a very small connection.... which again will power everything BUT the starter. And so the random behavior is not really random at all.
I think of batteries like this: they have a certain capacity because of the area of the electrodes in contact with the electrolyte. No big mystery there- bigger batteries make more power. But over time, the electrolyte degrades and the plates really degrade quite substantially- they crumble, become porous, become sulfated and any areas with that condition do not act like a battery cell anymore. So as batteries age, they literally become 'smaller' regarding max. power output possible. Unfortunately that is not coupled with voltage so a battery may have a perfectly acceptable resting voltage but just not be able to produce sufficient current to crank the engine briskly anymore. So just as an example: suppose a new C-14 battery has a capacity of 200 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) (I am just making this number up for the example). The engine / starter take 100 CCA to start briskly and with good cranking voltage of, say, 10 volts. Now, as the battery deteriorates, it is not even noticed because we only needed a battery 1/2 that size to begin with so when the battery is at, say, 75% capacity, all is still perfect in our world and the bike will crank perfectly. Only a load test would determine the loss of battery power by the way. But the deterioration continues all the time, even when the battery is not being 'used' (although the second the electrolyte is introduced to the battery it is active and 'being used' even when not connected to anything). We do not notice anything though until the battery hits perhaps 40% of its new capacity and the engine starts to crank a bit longer and possibly we begin to notice it is cranking a bit slower. But the bike will still start reliably until either 1) there is an odd stress put on the battery (left the lights on) or 2) it finally just becomes 'too small' to actually start the bike. Usually it is a combination of things that bring the deterioration to our attention: a battery getting weaker as the weather gets colder is a bad combination. And then that one day, when it is really cold, the vehicle will not start. But the battery did not fail that day, it was literally years in the making.
Brian
Why would it start slow, Brian? Not trying to 'start' something but I just gotta know.
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Why would it start slow, Brian? Not trying to 'start' something but I just gotta know.
Right.. that was the only reason I was posting a "me too" on the battery thing, was because of the "slow" start. The other problem is mostly likely too low of an idle speed.
Measuring the voltage tells very little about the condition of the battery or the connections. Poor connection = bad current flow. Old or damaged battery = no depth = bad current flow or poor subsequent starts. I was bitten by both, myself!
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thanks for your thoughts B, but as i noted, and this was experienced firsthand, even though the bike can crank when a demand for amps is presented to the battery, the fact is that with a slightly resistive connection between the batt and the generator, the voltage available AT STARTUP (i.e. what the computer sees at startup) MAY remain lower than it's design spec, ergo it will effect electronics that are caling for minimal volts/amps to give correct signal.
Yeah, when the starter demands amps, it will pull them... but an electronic circuit that relies on miliamps, and 5v will NOT be satisfied with the resistive connection.
I have seen firsthand and seen many instances of an appearantly "good" connection actually being not so good, rendering delicate circuits with minimal values, and causing glitches that a perfectly clean and solid connection does not render.
Jim's direction as to remove and make clean every connection, is spot on, it eliminates all guesswork from the equation, and by the example I noted where when we reset idle to be acceptable, after completly cleaning and reinstalling the cables, the idle went up by the value we added prior to the cleaning...
It cannot be disputed in the example i witnessed, that the connection compromise didn't matter... it was the cause.
again, ymmv
8)
note again, I am not talking about a corroded connection, I am talking about a connection that has a resistive coating at the terminal and wire lug. it is invisible, but it exists, kinda like anodizing metel. it is resistive in nature, but when a high current demand is called upon at the connection, it will deliver, it just does'nt allow correct charging, or minimal voltage exchange in the rest of the batt function.
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Excellent! Thanks to all as usual. Drinks on me should I ever show up at your abodes..
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Excellent! Thanks to all as usual. Drinks on me should I ever show up at your abodes..
Lip service........pure lip service!!!! ;)
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Lip service........pure lip service!!!! ;)
His lips service him by delivering more alcohol...
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If the suggestions above don't work, something else the OP may want to consider is a vacuum leak.
The C14 engine idle is controlled in the ECU by an "IAP" map, or Idle Air Pressure map. The IAP map determines injector fuel delivery during idle based on differential pressure....so the FI ECU is monitoring the difference between throttlebody vacuum and atmospheric pressure.
Unlikely I know, but worth a thought if nothing else works. Perhaps there is a vacuum leak that is sealing itself up when the engine is warmed up? I normally wouldn't consider it myself, but I recently found the intake runner boot clamps on my C14 to be loose....finger loose...and they came from Momma Kawasaki this way. I wasn't having any idle issues, but the fact remains that the boots were still loose and may have become potential vacuum leaks later on down the road.
It probably wouldn't hurt to check the intake air temp sensor too. I've not heard of one failing yet, but anything is possible. It's probably the easiest sensor to access on the C14...it's right under the fuel tank on top of the frame/airbox.
On a side note about batteries...I've replaced two batteries in the past week on bikes that were difficult to start and idling poorly. It's always a catch-22 situation...lol. People often think that there is something wrong with the bike because "they just replaced the battery last year". The majority of the time, it's a bad battery...new or old. Everything starts getting funky in the 12.5-12.6vdc range. There's enough power to spin the starter just fine, but not enough voltage for the ECU, or CDI box on the carbed bikes. By catch-22...I mean that nobody wants to just go and buy a new battery for trial and error testing...but at the same time, they don't want to pay to have their new-ish battery tested either.
Just because your battery tender light goes green, or your multi-meter shows 13+vdc on a fully charged battery doesn't necessarily mean that the battery is good.
If we're throwing out guesses here...I'd have to side with BDF on the problem....but at the same time, if this bike has been checked out by a competent Kawasaki dealer, I can't imagine them not checking and adjusting the warm idle.
JMTCW,
Rem 8)
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IMHO and my recent experience. My battery was the culprit. Took it off the tender, and it noted fully charged. The bike started albeit slowly and when the cold idol shut down and the bikes RPMs lowered she shut right off, and wouldn't start up again. Voltage was 10. So I pulled the battery and took it to the garage. They indicated the battery had sulfated. My tender doesn’t have and anti-sulfate setting. Anyway, the garage drained the acid replaced it and put in an anti-sulfate additive. Then they deep cycle charged the battery. I took it home and installed it. The bike started right up with no hesitation! Anyway since the battery was going bad, and it was over 3 years old. I ordered a Bike Master GEL battery as I'm going on an extended trip next month, and didn't want to deal with getting stranded with a marginal battery.
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Thanks for all the replies, Kawasaki replaced almost every part in the motor. including the crank, piston rings. valves, they even flew in an engineer. No one could fix the idle issue or stalling. So they gave me a brand new 2013 Concours C14 ABS. No complaints here. This bike runs like a charm. The idle stays at 1400 rpm all the time.
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Ah the mighty power of KiPass reveals yet another facet.
Plus, it is stories like this (Kawasaki replacing the bike with a brand new one) that I think make us all glad we do not own Feegers (Fudjers).
<duckin', runnin' and grinnin'>
Great to know though and thank you for finishing off the story on the forum. Oftentimes, someone has a problem and we never hear the resolution.
Brian
Thanks for all the replies, Kawasaki replaced almost every part in the motor. including the crank, piston rings. valves, they even flew in an engineer. No one could fix the idle issue or stalling. So they gave me a brand new 2013 Concours C14 ABS. No complaints here. This bike runs like a charm. The idle stays at 1400 rpm all the time.
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wow, :)
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Thanks for all the replies, Kawasaki replaced almost every part in the motor. including the crank, piston rings. valves, they even flew in an engineer. No one could fix the idle issue or stalling. So they gave me a brand new 2013 Concours C14 ABS. No complaints here. This bike runs like a charm. The idle stays at 1400 rpm all the time.
Holy cr@p! That's impressive. Congrats and way to go Mother Kaw! :hail:
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You probably should thank the dealer as well...
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Holy cr@p! That's impressive. Congrats and way to go Mother Kaw! :hail:
Indeed!! That is VERY impressive!! :)
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The C14 engine idle is controlled in the ECU
You're referring to IDLE MIXTURE, not IDLE SPEED. Idle speed is controlled by a knob you have on the left side of the bike, near the shift lever. And yes, I was surprised a modern bike had idle speed adjustment, but I like it MUCH better that way ;D.
OP, congrats on the new bike, but you need to lower your idle speed to 1,200 max when fully hot. I have mine right at 1,100, and it likes it the best. The N-1 shift when stopped is less harsh too.