Surging, possible o2 sensor issue with Autotune...

[Son of Pappy]

So, it seems my '08 has developed a surging from 2500-3500.  I have the full areap, PCV and Autotune.  At first I thought it was a tank of bad gas (same station since bike was new).  The evening before it started the bike ran awesome, the change only happened after a fill up.  I ran half a can of seafoam through the tank, filled with fresh gas from another station (use premium).  The surge only happens at small throttle openings.  It has become that on/off feel.  If I pin the throttle everything feels normal, but when it's surging I get the feeling I am only on 3 cyclinders or starving for fuel.  This evening I will be pulling the airfilter and draining the tank to see if it may still be the fuel or the filter, which has about 10,000 miles since I last cleaned it.  I will be sending a copy of this to Jamie to see if he has any suggestions, maybe something with the PCV or auto tune, I'm just not sure, but I need to figure it out soon, I have an Advanced Street Skills this Friday and I dont want a sub par bike on the track.  Any and all suggestions will be read carefully and I promise I wont reply LOUDLY!

Thanks in advance,

Chet

[B.D.F.]

Well, here is a pretty broad but free idea Chet....

My bike tends to get sluggish at small throttle openings over time. The trip I took out your way seems to have been especially hard on it. Fuel injector cleaner straightens it out but the bike seems sensitive to the brand and type used. This last time I tried Chevron Techron (one bottle in one tank of fuel) and it had no noticeable effect. Then I tried Gumout, the specific type that is supposed to clean injectors, intake valves and combustion chambers (a very specific solvent is used in these types). Again, no noticeable effect. I currently have a tankful of the one that has worked well in the past- STP fuel injector cleaner, the stuff in the black bottle (different formulations are in different color bottles). About 80 miles into the first tankful using STP and the throttle response is getting crisper, the throttle is more sensitive and the bike runs stronger at lower RPM (all indications of dirty injectors that will not atomize fuel). The other thing that happens is that the crankcase oil turns almost black and becomes extremely thin after using this stuff. I take that as a good sign that the solvent is making it by the rings and into the crankcase. None of the other cleaners had that effect on the engine.

My suggestion would be to give it a try- use about 1/2 of the bottle in a full tank of fuel and see if the bike runs better / crisper. You absolutely will want to change the oil after that one tankful though because the oil will be like water.... black, stinky water.

Brian

So, it seems my '08 has developed a surging from 2500-3500.  I have the full areap, PCV and Autotune.  At first I thought it was a tank of bad gas (same station since bike was new).  The evening before it started the bike ran awesome, the change only happened after a fill up.  I ran half a can of seafoam through the tank, filled with fresh gas from another station (use premium).  The surge only happens at small throttle openings.  It has become that on/off feel.  If I pin the throttle everything feels normal, but when it's surging I get the feeling I am only on 3 cyclinders or starving for fuel.  This evening I will be pulling the airfilter and draining the tank to see if it may still be the fuel or the filter, which has about 10,000 miles since I last cleaned it.  I will be sending a copy of this to Jamie to see if he has any suggestions, maybe something with the PCV or auto tune, I'm just not sure, but I need to figure it out soon, I have an Advanced Street Skills this Friday and I dont want a sub par bike on the track.  Any and all suggestions will be read carefully and I promise I wont reply LOUDLY!

Thanks in advance,

Chet

[Son of Pappy]

STP, black bottle it is!  Just changed oil last week   Oh well.  Do you think I may have a partially clogged fuel pump screen?  I go through about 2 tanks a week so I kinda ruled that out.

[B.D.F.]

If you use expensive motor oil you might want to consider draining it out and saving it. Then use something cheap, like Rotella 15W-40 for the injector cleaning tank. It is a terrible waste of oil as it really does thin it down to a scary level. Rotella is only around $15 but expensive oil changed out in a week is a shame....

You probably do not have a clogged pump screen but the injector cleaner will help clean that up too as well as the pump itself and all the fuel passages. Unfortunately the STP brand is a bit aggressive (which is why it works well as a cleaner) so I would not use it too often as it <may> be hard on some fuel system components. I used to use it every second oil change (3K miles between oil changes) but have not used it in a while- maybe 15K or 20K miles so I am sure it is time.

I usually do not think too much of 'potions' and magic fixes but injector cleaner really does seem to work on both cars and motorcycles. I saw a chart about the effectiveness of various F.I. cleaners and some were rated pretty highly while others were shown as ineffective. Unfortunately I did not grab that chart when I had the chance.

Brian

STP, black bottle it is!  Just changed oil last week   Oh well.  Do you think I may have a partially clogged fuel pump screen?  I go through about 2 tanks a week so I kinda ruled that out.

[DenverC-14]

If you use expensive motor oil you might want to consider draining it out and saving it. Then use something cheap, like Rotella 15W-40 for the injector cleaning tank. It is a terrible waste of oil as it really does thin it down to a scary level. Rotella is only around $15 but expensive oil changed out in a week is a shame....

You probably do not have a clogged pump screen but the injector cleaner will help clean that up too as well as the pump itself and all the fuel passages. Unfortunately the STP brand is a bit aggressive (which is why it works well as a cleaner) so I would not use it too often as it <may> be hard on some fuel system components. I used to use it every second oil change (3K miles between oil changes) but have not used it in a while- maybe 15K or 20K miles so I am sure it is time.

I usually do not think too much of 'potions' and magic fixes but injector cleaner really does seem to work on both cars and motorcycles. I saw a chart about the effectiveness of various F.I. cleaners and some were rated pretty highly while others were shown as ineffective. Unfortunately I did not grab that chart when I had the chance.

Brian

Do you happen to have a link to that chart, if it was online?

[Son of Pappy]

So, just returned from the on base PX, they didnt have the black bottle, but they did have the concentrated in a silver bottle/gold label.  I also bought a bottle of Gumout Regane complete.  I'll dumb em both in, 'less of course ya say not a good idea, after I clean the airfilter, I'll let the bike idle for 5-10 minutes, shut her off to cool down, then take it for a 30 minute ride.  I'll report what success, if any, I have.

[Conrad]

So, just returned from the on base PX, they didnt have the black bottle, but they did have the concentrated in a silver bottle/gold label.  I also bought a bottle of Gumout Regane complete.  I'll dumb em both in, 'less of course ya say not a good idea, after I clean the airfilter, I'll let the bike idle for 5-10 minutes, shut her off to cool down, then take it for a 30 minute ride.  I'll report what success, if any, I have.

Personally, I wouldn't use them both at the same time Chet. The chemistry may not be compatible, you never know what may happen.

[B.D.F.]

You don't want to use too much of the stuff- if the label says it treats up to 21 gallons (this indicates relative strength), I would not use more than about 1/2 of a bottle in a full tank of fuel. It is best to add the stuff when you fuel up so it is thoroughly mixed with the fuel in the tank; I usually put a gallon or so of fuel in the tank, then 1/2 bottle of F.I. cleaner, and then fill the tank the rest of the way. As I said, the stuff is a solvent and <can> be hard on some soft parts of the fuel system (think of plastic in acetone, not good). As Conrad said, I would not use two types at one time but not because they will not mix, just because they are both solvents and it would be too concentrated in my opinion.

Once the F.I. cleaner is mixed in with the fuel, I try to use that tank to as low a level as I dare and then fill it again so that the next tank does not contain much of the F.I. cleaner. If you fill up when the tank containing the F.I. cleaner is only ½ gone for example, the next tank will also contain a lot of F.I. cleaner. Run that first tank down quite low, refill the tank and change the oil.

Brian

So, just returned from the on base PX, they didnt have the black bottle, but they did have the concentrated in a silver bottle/gold label.  I also bought a bottle of Gumout Regane complete.  I'll dumb em both in, 'less of course ya say not a good idea, after I clean the airfilter, I'll let the bike idle for 5-10 minutes, shut her off to cool down, then take it for a 30 minute ride.  I'll report what success, if any, I have.

[B.D.F.]

Wow Conrad, you seem to be confusing fuel injector cleaner with the Demon Core.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core

 

But I do agree that two containers probably should not be used together- not because they might react (they might I guess?) but because it would put a lot of F.I. cleaner in the tank at one time. I believe too much of the stuff <might> attack plastic and / or rubber fuel system parts. Sort of the way acetone can be mixed with gasoline to increase the gas's octane rating..... until you use a bit too much in a Corvette only to find out that those fuel tanks contain a rubber bladder, and the semi- liquefied bladder will NOT pump through the entire fuel system. 

Brian

Personally, I wouldn't use them both at the same time Chet. The chemistry may not be compatible, you never know what may happen.

[Son of Pappy]

OK, no cocktails!  I will be doing the smell test, whichever stinks the worst gets dumped into the tank   The gumout wins, it is nasty smelling!!!  The STP smells almost like diesel.

[Conrad]

Wow Conrad, you seem to be confusing fuel injector cleaner with the Demon Core.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core

 

But I do agree that two containers probably should not be used together- not because they might react (they might I guess?) but because it would put a lot of F.I. cleaner in the tank at one time. I believe too much of the stuff <might> attack plastic and / or rubber fuel system parts. Sort of the way acetone can be mixed with gasoline to increase the gas's octane rating..... until you use a bit too much in a Corvette only to find out that those fuel tanks contain a rubber bladder, and the semi- liquefied bladder will NOT pump through the entire fuel system. 

Brian

I may have exaggerated the situation slightly. I just didn't think that it was prudent for Chet to use all that solvent in poor Connie at once.

[Gearhead82]

Could it be an issue with the O2 sensor used with the Autotune setup?  I don't know if those wideband sensors are known to fail or need regular replacement.

[Son of Pappy]

Could it be an issue with the O2 sensor used with the Autotune setup?  I don't know if those wideband sensors are known to fail or need regular replacement.

That is a question I have, it has been on the bike for some 30000 miles and I have pushed the extreme a time or two and also have a wonderfully boring commute on the I5 rolling parking lot   I will do a little playing around if the cleaner and air filter dont solve the problem.  I'm waiting on word from Jaime, he may have some insight.

[B.D.F.]

Bah! A C-14 can take almost anything thrown at it, including unlimited solvents in the fuel tank!

Not really but I am enjoying the distinct lack of Mary Jane Tinklepants, hand- wringing, "should I be worried" postings here lately. Not sure what happened but it seems to be a different demographic and I like it. We seem to have a can- do, forge ahead group gelling around the virtual camp fire. So buck up folks and point your noses into the wind and ride.... we need tough people to ride C-14's and post here; dem girly- men can post somewhere else ('my tire was 0.002 PSI low today, should I be worried?' and so forth).

<smiley, kind of>

Brian

I may have exaggerated the situation slightly. I just didn't think that it was prudent for Chet to use all that solvent in poor Connie at once.

[C1xRider]

What about E10 vs. non-Ethanol?  Changed between them lately?

I'm still experimenting, but while doing the Ride the Ribbon event a couple weekends ago, I was filling with non-Ethanol 92, mainly for the 5mpg increase.  When I returned to the metro area, I ran for 2 more days on that fuel.  When I finally refueled with Chevron 92 E10, I noticed the throttle control became much more abrupt.  No surging like you report, but certainly much more of the 'light switch' control it has been in the past.  To be honest, I didn't even notice it smoothed out (probably too tired), until it was back.

I found a station outside of town that carries non-E10 92, so I'll be heading that way for the next fill up, to continue the experiment.

Probably has nothing to do with your problem, but something else to check.

[DenverC-14]

Bah! A C-14 can take almost anything thrown at it, including unlimited solvents in the fuel tank!

Not really but I am enjoying the distinct lack of Mary Jane Tinklepants, hand- wringing, "should I be worried" postings here lately. Not sure what happened but it seems to be a different demographic and I like it. We seem to have a can- do, forge ahead group gelling around the virtual camp fire. So buck up folks and point your noses into the wind and ride.... we need tough people to ride C-14's and post here; dem girly- men can post somewhere else ('my tire was 0.002 PSI low today, should I be worried?' and so forth).

<smiley, kind of>

Brian

  Get out and ride, indeed. Put the miles on and have fun, that's what riding is about for me.

[Fretka]

Might be a good time to stick in a new lambda/O2 sensor (after you use the fi cleaner). The Bosch sensor can be had for around $ 30. me thinks.

Fretka

[Son of Pappy]

Thanks Fretka, it may be something I pick up this evening.  A quick question, my AFR reading on the Dynojet PCV program shows a steady 9.99 AFR, regardless of throttle position or RPM.  Even tried the differant maps, do you think this may be an indication the sensor is bad?  Accepted trims, no change to readout.

I cleaned out the filter, wasnt too bad.  I added the FI cleaner, ran it for 10 minutes, shut her down, repeated several times over the course of 2 hours.  Still getting the surge.  I also tried a coupla differant maps I had stored.  Havent ridden it yet, but the surging is still there.  Maybe my engine is getting READY TO GRENADE? (MaryJoe Tinklepants for BDF!)

[Son of Pappy]

http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/UserGuides/AT200/AT-200.pdf

So, I answered my own question, if the AFR reading is showing 9.99 there is either a faulty sensor or faulty connection.  I did a quick check last night, all looked OK, i will look closer tonight as I prepare to pull the sensor.  Fretka, you wouldnt happen to know which sensor I need, do you?  Is the Lamda Wideband generic or will I need a specific sensor?

Thanks,

[B.D.F.]

You are going to need the correct sensor. That looks like a Bosch LSU4.2 5-wire, which is a wide- band, heated sensor and very common. About $75 / $80 from a discount vendor. But make sure that is the sensor they are using before buying one because they are generally NOT returnable.

Nice job Fretka on mentioning that, and nice job on checking it Chet. This is how an interactive forum should work! Now all you are going to have to do after replacing the O2 sensor is to put the dirt back onto the air filter and get the F.I. cleaner out of the fuel tank. 

Brian

http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/UserGuides/AT200/AT-200.pdf

So, I answered my own question, if the AFR reading is showing 9.99 there is either a faulty sensor or faulty connection.  I did a quick check last night, all looked OK, i will look closer tonight as I prepare to pull the sensor.  Fretka, you wouldnt happen to know which sensor I need, do you?  Is the Lamda Wideband generic or will I need a specific sensor?

Thanks,