Author Topic: Question I've got: No start....Well, here it is....  (Read 8793 times)

Offline timmerz

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Question I've got: No start....Well, here it is....
« on: August 28, 2011, 12:55:33 PM »
My '91 has quit starting, and my mechanic is going through the fail-safes one by one to see where the problem lies...when starter button is pushed there is no dimming of the dash lights, and no audible or visible reaction to the button push...we have checked (bridged) the clutch and kick stand fail-safes, no change...also replaced the J-Box, no change...I was thinking maybe starter relay, but is that in the J-box?
The starter engages when you bridge the ignition wires, and also when you bridge the terminals on the part right next to the J-Box (id needed, please?)...I already bought a new 93 starter button assembly off ebay, but that did not provide a solution...
Anybody got any thoughts right off the bean?

Ok, the part next to the J-Box is now ID'd as the relay, so that will be the next thing we change-out to see if that's the culprit...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 09:30:56 PM by timmerz »

Offline timmerz

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Re: Question I've got: No Start...any ideas?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2011, 08:14:20 PM »
Nope, that's not it either...changed-out the J-Box and now the starter relay AND the starter button mechanism on the right handlebar, and we are plumb outta ideas at this point...like I said, we can get the starter to engage, so we know that the battery has enough juice and that there is juice all the way up to the green plug that the start button/kill switch plugs into, because we can bridge two wires there and get the starter to crank...and this is the second handlebar switch I've tried, because I thought maybe the kill button was malfunctioning...
Any ideas at all?

Offline T Cro ®

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2011, 08:36:09 PM »
Dam I'm sorry I'm not at my computer to study the wiring diagrams. Sounds like it could be in the key switch, kill switch but you changed that so no, neutral switch or clutch switch which is actualy a two way switch.
Tony P. Crochet
(SOLD) 01 Concours Winner of COG Most Modified in 2010

Offline Silver Connie

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2011, 10:50:43 PM »
mine was clutch switch. i fiddled with the clutch while engaging the button.   the used starter button could need disassembled and cleaned, as could the original.

Offline timmerz

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2011, 11:01:57 PM »
Yeah, we have checked it several times, cleaned it a few.....thanks for the input, though! If you think of anything else, pop back in....I'm pretty frustrated right now! Wanted to be riding again this week, instead I'm gonna be putt-ing on my XL600r just so I can be on 2 wheels again!

Offline Centex

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2011, 11:39:58 PM »
Some links that might be helpful from moderator George R Young's website:

How the J Box works

J Box problem diagnostics

The second link above discusses No-Start issues and has within it links to the major start system component schematics for both early and late C10, though not the full Connie wiring schematics.

You've mentioned clutch and sidestand interlocks, but not the neutral switch on the tranny?  All three must be grounded for "go" at the start relay.
Alan in Central Texas
2004 Connie COG 9476
2001 Ducati M750

Offline timmerz

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 04:17:26 AM »
Thanks Centex, we had already printed those out and worked our way through them....still baffled.....hmmmm, the neutral indicator on the dash has been lit green this whole time, so we are assuming the neutral switch is grounded....I wonder if the light operates independently by some other switch?

Offline T Cro ®

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 04:38:47 AM »
Wrote this before the great fire.....

Help my Concours will not start and I don’t know what to do.
(Bike does not Turn Over or Crank)

Tools needed Multi-Meter and a couple of Test Cords with Alligator Clips on both ends and Test Cords with an Alligator Clip on one end and a sharp probe on the other end.

1.   First off put the Bike on the Center Stand and make absolutely sure the bike is in Neutral by turning the rear wheel by hand. Remove the Seat and the left hand Side Cover. This is as good as a time as any to try the “Thumping the J-Box” trick as sometimes a good solid thump from the handle end of a screwdriver can get a defective J-Box to work at least one more time.
2.   What is my Battery Voltage? If you have anything remotely less than 12.5 Volts DC you just as soon stop and go get the Battery Charger or Jumper Cables because the battery does not have the energy needed to crank the engine.
3.   With the Key Switch in the ON position test the Horn. Does the Horn work? If yes you can skip step 4.
4.   Remove the cover from the Fuse Box which was exposed when you removed the Left Side Cover. Check your 30 Amp Main Fuse is it any good? If yes proceed to next step if it is bad replace it; try starting the bike if it blows again you got serious problems.
5.   Could it be that the Neutral Switch is on vacation? This is easy to determine simply pull in the Clutch and try starting the bike. If the Bike cranks then the Neutral Switch is at fault and needs to be attended to; if not the Starter Lockout Switch could be at fault. The SLS is that tiny little switch that you can hear click when you pull in the clutch lever.
6.   You can bypass the SLS by taking a suitable test cord and attaching it to Ground (Negative side of the Bike) such as a bare bolt head on the frame or engine and with the sharp probe poke it into the connector at the J-Box (behind the fuse box) into the Yellow with Green Stripe wire. Note this completely bypasses the Neutral Switch as well as the SLS. Keep in mind that it when the clutch is not pulled in that it takes both of these switches to allow your starter to work. Try starting the bike; if the bike cranks then the SLS needs some attention.
7.   If you did not find issue in the above steps we are going to find out if your issue is the Ignition Switch, Stop Switch, Start Button, Starter Solenoid, or the dreaded J-Box; so let’s do the easy stuff first. Take a test cord and attach it to the (+) Positive Side of the Battery and touch it to the terminal on the side of the Starter Solenoid that the Yellow with Red Striped wire attaches to. Did the starter motor engage and crank the engine over? If no then you got a bad Solenoid.
8.   Next we are going to take that same test lead that is attached to (+) and connect it to the Black wire going to the J-Box if the engine tries to crank over then the J-Box has passed it’s first test! As this means that the Starter Relay Circuit in the J-Box is good. If you failed this test get another J-Box or remove it for repairs.
9.   Now you need to remove the Fuel Tank and find the Ignition Switch Plug which is located near to the Steering Stem under the Fuel Tank on the Left Side. Ok now take your (+) test lead and probe it into yellow wire and try to start the engine if the engine cranks you have a bad Ignition Switch.
10.   If no then your next step is check the Kill Switch and/or Starter Button. With the same (+) test lead probe into the red wire in your Right Hand Control Pod Connector. Now try starting the engine if the engine cranks then your Kill Switch is at fault if not your problem lies in the Starter Button.

You see in the above very easy steps you have tested every segment of the Starter Circuit with no real tools or skills at all; please note that you can just as easily use the Multi Meter to test your switches and circuits by checking for voltage and/or continuity but I was looking to guide you through this as simply as I could with crude broad strokes that you can mange to do roadside if your in a pinch or lack the proper tools at home.
Tony P. Crochet
(SOLD) 01 Concours Winner of COG Most Modified in 2010

Offline timmerz

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 09:06:11 PM »
Thanks VERY much, T Cro! Printed this out, got to get some sort of voltage tester gadget...

Offline throb

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 03:36:58 AM »
Hah!  I even saved this info even though there are no starting issues with mine but it seems as though any time I take measures and am prepared for something like this, it doesn't happen...not that I'm superstitious or anything...   :loco:
'05 Concours, SISF's 2 min jet mod and exhaust cam sprocket, snarf's block off plates, risers, SS lines, fork brace, T-Cro's stick coils & shift linkage, ZZR1200 rear shock, MS rear wheel.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 09:26:51 AM »
I know you have said you have battery power, but have you pulled the battery and had it load tested? How old is the battery?
Yuasa batteries are notorious for SDS (sudden death syndrome)....broken internal bond between cells, that show voltage untill they are "loaded", and then there is nothing (2v)
just tossing it out there. ;)

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline timmerz

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 09:55:19 AM »
Real good point, MOB....and the batt DID go dead while we were doing all the testing with the tail light on and sometimes the headlight on....so I'm pretty sure I'll be putting skid marks on the MasterCard next weekend already! :-X

Offline Two Skies

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 01:10:13 PM »
If you have jumper cables handy, you could properly attach those to the battery terminals, and another convenient 12v battery, and see if the starter suddenly works.  If so, good chance the battery theory may be correct.

I was thinking you may have a faulty/worn wire between the starter switch and the solenoid somewhere, but that was already covered above I think.  Also, the switch itself might need some tlc, but again, this was covered above.
2006 w/50,000+ miles and a few bruises.

MCL Fork Brace & Handlebar Risers.  Bergmen Quick Release Tank Kit, Pilot GT Front/Avon Venom Rear tire.  Trunk w/spoiler.  NGK DR8EIX plugs.  Piece of foam in airbox.  Beads on seat.  Bafflectomized.  Murphs Kneesavers & Fuse Block.  Cee Bailey Winscreen w/vent.  Heated grips.  'Custom' mirrors.

Offline T Cro ®

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 02:06:18 PM »
Yep that's why checking the battery voltage is right at the top of my list. Batteries can and do go south at the drop of a hat; my high dollar PC680 shorted out with absolutely no warning. And without a well charged battery most any other test you do is going to be worthless or give questionable results. BTW not to hijack but for 133.00 a fresh ( as in March or April) PC680 is waiting on me to get home as we speak.
Tony P. Crochet
(SOLD) 01 Concours Winner of COG Most Modified in 2010

Offline Stasch

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 02:07:24 PM »
Quote
Real good point, MOB....and the batt DID go dead while we were doing all the testing with the tail light on and sometimes the headlight on....so I'm pretty sure I'll be putting skid marks on the MasterCard next weekend already!

I had a sealed AGM unit do the same thing on return trip from Mt. Snow on my GPZ.
Just east of Cleveland dash lights go out when hitting starter button after gas stop.

Battery measured 13.1+ volts but it had NOTHING left.  Turning key on and off, dash would light or go dark but brake lights would work, then no brake lights AND no dash lights.  If the dash lights were lit, the instant starter button was pushed - they went dark without a hint of power ever hitting the starter.

Very odd to have stuff turn on, then off then nothing at all.  The clock worked through the entire routine, at least until the old battery was removed.

We jumped Randy's C10 battery to it, and all was normal.   An hour or so and a new battery from AutoZone later we were back in business.

In hindsight, I should've replaced it before leaving to return to MI, but since it seemed sporadic AND load tested fine at Advance Auto in Bennington, I wasn't positive a new batt. would be it. 
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Offline Pfloydgad

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 02:29:42 PM »
What the Hell,
Dead ground on Kill switch, says it's in Neutral, but, is she actually in gear?
Dirty key switch tumblers, and i hate be redundant, no cranking amps in battery, plenty of volts, just no amps.
Sounds like a real head scratcher, good luck, and please let us all know what the jury has found.
Ride safe all,
Greg
Why did we have to run for cover with the promise of a brave new world unfold beneath the clear blue sky ?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2011, 03:23:35 PM »
If you have jumper cables handy, you could properly attach those to the battery terminals, and another convenient 12v battery, and see if the starter suddenly works.  If so, good chance the battery theory may be correct.
....
while often times this is a safe assumption, and an "easy test", I will say use extreme caution, and be prepared to pull the cables at a seconds notice.....here's why:

I recently watched in terror, what I thought was a woman's engine engulfed in flames outside my office window..... I ran down the hall, grabbing a fire extinguisher, and across the lot to her car where I saw what was happening....luckily.
Seems a pretty non-mechanically inclined sales engineer had attached jumpers to the womans battery, and proceded to hook them up to the battery on his big buck$ Escalade, cranked his car up, and sat there attempting to charge the womans battery, when she hit the key, and began to attempt to start her car that had a "sudden death battery", the jumpers totally melted down, and caught fire, all the insulation was burning/burnt/drripping off of the red hot wires, which began shorting out together while all parties stood there doing nothing.....luckily there was a rag present, and I used it to pull the cables off the Escalade, and then off her cars battery. I almost hosed the dumb guy down with dry Chem just because he stood there watching it all melt down. ??? :'(
She had a typical "hot weather failure where her battery (old) actually overcharged and boiled out, allowing total dead short between all the plates, killing the battery, and when they jumped it....and she hit the key with the other vehical cranking out mega amps....well, let's say they were lucky.  I know it had to have shot sparks when he hooked up the cables....

just use care, and always be prepared for the unexpected. ;)
A battery with an internal defect/fault, can explode when an attempt to jump it by attaching to the faulty battery's cables is used.


Another quick thing to check is the condition of the black/yellow ground wire attached to the mounting bolt on the left hand coil, it often becomes damaged at the ring lug, and can refuse to allow proper starting current to latch the solenoid.

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline timmerz

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2011, 11:16:44 AM »
What the Hell,
Dead ground on Kill switch, says it's in Neutral, but, is she actually in gear?
Dirty key switch tumblers, and i hate be redundant, no cranking amps in battery, plenty of volts, just no amps.
Sounds like a real head scratcher, good luck, and please let us all know what the jury has found.
Ride safe all,
Greg

I'll definitely post the resolution when the problem becomes apparent...thanks for the input, Greg...going to take T. Cro's list step by step, see if we can locate the problem, about the only things we did not cover yet are the centerstand to check for actual neutral (green indicator is on at dash, but....) and we have not touched the ignition yet....all obvious lights come on when the key is turned, and signals and high beam work....

Offline RedWyvern

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2011, 07:26:47 PM »
if you are squeezing the clutch in it won't matter if you have a false neutral green light.  That's the easiest way to eliminate the light.  Well, considering your clutch switch and wiring are good.

Maybe jumper across the relay pins of the starter circuit relay in the j-box? (and do all the other steps; kill sw on, key on, clutch in, sidestand up... although clutch in should bypass that).

You said it was not the starter solenoid (relay... the one to the left of the j-box).  Of course if the 2 small wires to it are not seeing voltage then it won't engage.  Since you replaced you don't need to check to see if it's being told to close and isn't - I have seen them bind up and not be able to engage.

Mark

Offline timmerz

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Re: Question I've got: No start....any ideas?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2011, 11:25:15 AM »
Yeah, RedWyvern, we have verified that the relay is ok, you can arc over the top of it and the starter engages...

The situation is this: the part of the harness that the right handlebar controls plug into is right up by the streering head, under the left-front of the tank...we can arc the hot and the starter wire there and the starter will engage, so we know we have good juice and good wiring from there to the starter...however, when we plug in any of the three different handlebar controls we have at our disposal, nothing happens when the starter button gets pushed. I have the original controls, another set bought on Ebay that were sworn to have worked when they were removed from the '93 they came off of, and yet another extra set my mechanic had on hand that he believed were perfectly good also...