Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: gpineau on December 05, 2020, 07:41:09 AM
-
Crank position is a critical component of ECU timing. Replacing the VR sensor with a Hall Effect sensor for best crank position precision.
https://youtu.be/ijxOpge07cw
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fspeeduino.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D19%26t%3D4374%26p%3D46783%26fbclid%3DIwAR1jlvMQw7UJcrz6jAPkv_CBRDaBqyMAQWAFOydOdC9RqOMZMh5RoXIiUrc%23p46783&h=AT263O2Sv2-HhHolPKsSlFcLTeelln7eks6pJvcWmYirc7MdvQ1lVRmCWK1HcE4koc1-QXcbyncOC1v4P4f__8oNIdTGU15QuyVjjzAQw4U2l5D2mcj62wrF55z32c8UntBC4jstRKAbPhmjzA3E&__tn__=R]-R&c[0]=AT1YoKyHc-IhIolxMgqAE4uMeulVL1rKf49TvlSe2gZ5N83XP8eMbOKW6gBrZPe-so5DKONUmDDJM93FdgQkhO3geQ-jussSsQimy7yz2LjkoYt8OKWrzm35Sv6lz18mQVzjhlhV7O0v0qjRBNvm0yoaYPTnlVBXHjgohUBHsBQo3QbB-qZsjJdnYhz27G3gubT1qM5KBZs52xKW2QQ
-
I've got the throttle bodies on the bench and teaching myself how to control the secondary throttle plates. I think that will be critical to keep the AFR from going too lean when quickly going to wide open throttle. I think I am close to figuring it out.
https://youtu.be/8X-HH7aWF6c
-
This is a one-off development just for my motorcycle which will have a throttle body with secondary throttle plates. The reason I need them, or think I need them is because of my other motorcycle AFR going too lean if opening the throttle too quickly. So in theory by delaying the airflow into the throttle body until the RPM can catch up with the TPS it may solve my problem. These secondary plates also crack open the primary plates when they are fully opened. This provides air at idle and a fast idle during warm up.
Currently working on firmware routines that control and calibrate the Secondary throttle plates.
When code wakes up and starts the initialize routine, it will calibrate the secondary plates by finding the full open and full closed positions. It is repeated 4 times then the values are saved.
In the main loop, a routine is called periodically to service the Secondary Throttle plates (STP). This routine uses RPM and TPS to look up in a table the target position of where the secondary throttle plates should be. It then compares this target position to the actual position and initiates a seek in the direction of the target position. Upon initiating the seek the routine will exit. This is repeated until the position reaches the target. At the moment I have it slowed down so I can see what is going on during debug.
A while until I am done but I think this is going to work.https://youtu.be/ia2SJ3GiNH4
-
Please refresh my memory.
Last I recall you had removed and lost the secondary throttle plates on the TB's that you were using.
Think I recall that you were planning to use TB's from another bike?
So, which TB's are you currently using for these tests?
Ride safe, Ted
Update; I just looked at your other posting. Think your using ZG-1400 TB's??
-
I have one of each. Z1000 and zg1400.
The zg1400 is a closer fit but I have experience with the z1000.
If i use them I will have to spread them apart 13mm and find a way to extend the shaft of the secondary throttle plates.
-
Connie Rider,
I used one z1000 tb in the last project. That is the one that I removed the plates from. I may still have the plates in the junk box but for now I will continue with the current project.
I have a 1400 set of TBs and a Z1000 set of TBs that I am playing with. The 1400 TBs are a close fit and I think will mount to the head if I used soft flexible hoses. The z1000 TBs are a bit more difficult. They must be separated in the middle and spread by 13 mm.
it would also require me to cut the shaft of the secondary plates and make a coupling to splice the 2 halves in the middle. That is really problematic because the motor that drives the plates is also mounted in the center between the two sets of TBs.
On the 1400 TB the driver motor is on the
I haven't decided yet which set I will use. I am just writing the software for controlling them that should work on which ever one I finally choose.
-
This is a really cool project! I have yet to ride a fuel injected bike. I probably won't comment much on your progress but I will be following your thread. It looks like you are well on your way to figuring this all out.
-
So, my guess is;
You'll start with the basic program you have {Secondary's open} and then close/adjust the secondary's to find improvement?
We'll be watching..
Ride safe, Ted
-
So, my guess is;
You'll start with the basic program you have {Secondary's open} and then close/adjust the secondary's to find improvement?
We'll be watching..
Ride safe, Ted
Well sort of that is the plan. I will probable concentrate on the wide open throttle problem I was having before. Start with a opening size and play with it until is see improvements.
Damn, it took most of the morning to get the secondary plates working on the 1400 throttle bodies. Although the connector uses an identical plug, the wiring it totally different. Its working fine now. Its a bigger motor and it takes about 25 more steps (compared to the z1000) to go from full open to full closed.
Now that this is working I think it is the one I am going to use on the C10 Connie. When I hold it up to the head I see single mm differences between the spacing on the head compared to the TBs. I'm sure I can make it fit. I'm going to go measure it now.
-
Rev made molded boots for his turbo bike. Worked initially but failed/cracked later.
Failure occurred because he had boosted pressure in it.
Don't think he had a heavy hose on the outside.
Ride safe, Ted
-
Looks good.
Will the silicon be fairly rigid?
I know it's a way off, but any thoughts on the air box?
The OEM is a PITA, but "if" you could find a way to put it on without a huge fight, would work well.
Ride safe, Ted
-
The silicone is not very rigid. It is a liquid until it sets up and cures. I am relying on it to find and seal all the seams. The rigidity will come from the outer radiator hose. It has thick 4 ply walls and is very stiff.
As for the airbox. Anyone that has removed and re-installed carbs will agree there must be a better way. I never did like the design of force fitting the carbs between the head and the airbox. I think a better design would have been to have the carbs held onto the head with some bracket then the airbox bolted onto the carbs with a similar/same bracket. I like Honda's design. The carbs are attached to the head and the airbox is bolted to the back of the carbs.
I will give it a try but from my last experience i think there is no room. It is about an inch too long. I could cut it up like I did the last one and possible make it work but it would be a real chore. I preordered 4 pod filters anyway.
BTW, I am still hunting for the secondary throttle plates that I removed from the other set of throttle bodies. Since I cleaned the garage it is difficult to remember where I put stuff. They are not in the box of carb parts but they may be in another box (heavy one ) on the top shelf .
-
OOPS ! brain fart....
Not the worst idea I have ever had but pretty close. Pouring liquid silicone down the throat of a throttle body and not expecting it to find every leak possible. What was I thinking. Turned into a gooey mess and went everywhere but where I wanted.
Decided on another approach. I will make a 3D model of the gasket (4 copies) then make a mold for them in a sealed container ,, then I can cast the real gasket out of silicone and it will be a much better fit that what I started out to make.
-
Finally my adapters from the TB to the head have arrived. I am so pleased with these and glad I waited for them instead of using my home made adapters. They are a perfect fit and solid mount between the head and TBs.
I've been working for days trying to print a case for the ECU. I have restarted maybe 7-8 times so far. I finally gave up and tossed the off-brand roll of PLA and put in a reel of ABS. It is looking good so far. Time will tell.
-
Yahooo.
Progress.. :thumbs: :hail:
Ride safe, Ted
-
Been a bum of the last two weeks. Had to have a couple kidney stones removed. But there was a 3r stone that could not be reached without sonic shock wave. Its supposed to be an outpatient procedure but it landed me in the ER and admission to the hospital for two days. Bruised my kidney and everything else on the side of the body. Good news is this only happens to about 1% of patients. I am so lucky I made the top 1%.
Got enough energy today to print up a case for the ECU. It looks great and I made it extra sturdy. Havnt' figured out where to mount it but to make it water proof I used an AMP SEAL connector and for all the seams and openings I will pack with white Lithium grease.
https://youtu.be/E8TbJmrKBDE
-
Welcome to the club, we are both in the 1 percent club. Kidney stints are fun. :)
Been a bum of the last two weeks. Had to have a couple kidney stones removed. But there was a 3r stone that could not be reached without sonic shock wave. Its supposed to be an outpatient procedure but it landed me in the ER and admission to the hospital for two days. Bruised my kidney and everything else on the side of the body. Good news is this only happens to about 1% of patients. I am so lucky I made the top 1%.
Got enough energy today to print up a case for the ECU. It looks great and I made it extra sturdy. Havnt' figured out where to mount it but to make it water proof I used an AMP SEAL connector and for all the seams and openings I will pack with white Lithium grease.
https://youtu.be/E8TbJmrKBDE
-
This is a terrible procedure. A shock wave that can pulverize stones and not hurt soft tissue....Bull ****. My whole left side, testes, scrotum is swollen and BLACK. I lost a lot of kidney function from this procedure.
My GFR dropped from 41 to 21. Which is stage 4 kidney failure. It has since come back up to 31but if it does not et back to 41 there is a couple doctors that will be in a court room explaining why they thought this procedure was ok for a 68 YO man with reduced renal function.
Enough crying. I had 5 unused pins in the big automotive connector so I cut loose the Bluetooth connectors and will bring those pins out the side connector. Also there is a 3rd serial port in the ECU which I brought out to the same connector. The 3rd serial port allows me to monitor many of the parameters in the ECU firmware. So I will build me another small ECU dedicated to controlling the secondary throttle plates in the throttle bodies. I Can also offload simple task like fuel pump/pressure control and the wideband O2 controller.
-
Very little progress. Still feeling shitty since I got home from the hospital. Doc says it will take about 4 months to return my kidney function and blood counts to normal.
Meanwhile I got the Crank wheel and position sensor installed and sired up. Also mounted the spark coil and ECU to the Battery box. The VW spark coil is a lot bigger that I thought so I couldnt mount it under the tank like I had planned so now it is down under the throttle bodies attached to the front of the battery box.
https://youtu.be/0_jjXn9jtCI
https://youtu.be/M_fshWd4Ssw
-
EFI conversion is complete. The bike starts fairly easily. Idles rough but will rev easily with the throttle.
My concern now before I start trouble shooting and tuning is that while running the bike is belching large amounts of white/gray smoke out both tail pipes. It wasn't doing that when i brought into the garage last fall.
I do know it is running a little on the rich side but not excessive. The AFR is running between 11 and 13 most of the time I will go slightly lean if I really twist hard on the throttle.
I cant see any line across the sight-glass. I don't recall that I added any oil but It may be over full.
If I push the bike up straight I see the oil on the full line but on the kickstand it shows over full.
@Do you check oil on the side stand or setting level?
Thinking it might be bad gas I drained the tank and replaced it with new ethanol-free gas. Still smokes and runs rough.
@Any idea ?
-
might need an injector cleaned. (one might be hanging up).
-
I made an injector tester but I never learned how to clean one. Do you know how?
-
last ones i cleaned out of a shop (used to work at a car dealer long time ago with the right stuff) was ultrasonically clean them in a tank. did this for my stepsons 850 volvo, actually worked.
I mean, if an injectors hung, it will show on one plug specifically. id pull the spark plugs. If its across all 4, its something else. like a bad or dirty 02 sensor. .02
-
well I tested the injectors and they were working before before I assembled everything.
I have an ultrasonic cleaner that I used to use for carbs. Not sure if it even works any more.
I am thinking more along the lines of corrupt memory in the ECU. Looking in my data log there is some weird ****. Like spark advance 107 degrees!!! There is no value in the spark table bigger than 32 degrees.....To keep from having to start the tuning from scratch I built the firmware from the latest release. Then I pulled the latest tune off of the other C10 and loaded it onto this new board. I was told by the friends on Speeduino forum that there is probably an incompatibility of memory locations between the two firmware revisions. So... I am starting from scratch now and doing all the setup from the beginning, then I will import the fuel allocation, spark timing, and AFR tables one by one. That should eliminate any memory corruption problems. (its also a lot of tedious work).
-
i had a standalone ecu lose it stables before on a different bike. it can be frustrating at best, but yeah that would def explain it. !!
-
Ok made some progress after wasting a week on a side project that really did not help much on this project. I started the motor on speed density using MAP vacuum for fuel loading. There is not enough rang of vacuum on a motorcycle with throttle bodies so I switched over to Alpha-n for fuel loading (Throttle position sensor). Now it runs better and idles much smoother. I have some more tweaking to do before taking it out for a spin....I am including the latest video. A little embarrassing but don't laugh too loud.
https://youtu.be/sxK1A8m3REk
-
It is Aaaaa-live!
Ride safe, Ted
-
What happened to Man of Blues? I have 2 pages of comments but nothing from him? Is he alright?
-
Last time active was Nov 5th last year.
-
Last time active was Nov 5th last year.
I thought he was very involved with the COG forum right now but I know he is also fighting long-term sickness. :(
Can anyone check when he was last active on the COG forum?
-
The last post I could find for Man of Blues on the COG site was Nov 3. Not sure how well the search works since they threw me off that site for not being a member back in Feb.
There was a mention of chemo in a post from Sept.
-
Chemo! That's bad news. I'm starting to worry. I hope we haven't lost him.
-
I've been messaging and calling him for several months.
No replies at all.
if anyone knows how he is doing, let us know.
If anyone is in contact with him, {let us know} and tell him we're concerned about him.
Ride safe, Ted
-
Ive been going to classes and working and had very little time to work on the bike but today I got to go for a ride.
Before today it have been running poorly and nearly impossible to tune. I found two problems. The fuel filter was full of crud which after warm up nearly closed off when the bike was hot. Then it is idling rough and running too rich rich. I found some small injectors on ebay and downsized from 420 cc/min to 230cc/min. That smoothed idle right out.
Took it for a tuning ride today. . Did really well. AFR was all over the place when I left but when I got home it was between 13.8 and 15 depending on which gear I was in and if accelerating or down shifting. Auto-tune is worth every penny...So far it screams through first and second gear and feels like it has a lot more power than it did when it was carbureted. Never got out of second gear the whole time. School was letting out so I had to bring it home before I got reported. Tomorrow is my day off so I will have more time to spend on tuning.
Video Tomorrow.
-
I think I have a sticky intake valve, not sure but I can hear it spit back through one of the TBs when I slow down for a corner. I can hear it sometimes while idling.
I can't remember if I have ever adjusted the valves on this bike. But stickling open is not a common problem with these bikes, is it? ???
-
A quick run around the block to prove to my wife i wasn't goofing off all day.
Its got a little dead spot in the throttle when you first go to WOT but when it gets past that point it has a lot of acceleration.
I had the wife take the video because my go-pro clone is not working. ( i ordered a new one) . Listen when I first try to accelerate. It bogs down for a second then takes off. https://youtu.be/Mu-Qv1WY_nE
-
Summary of the project
https://youtu.be/iUppXPYqMNk
-
Hard to tell the bog as don't know exactly when you twisted the loud handle.
But, it seems that your getting close.
Ride safe, Ted
PS: Sticking valves not common, but some issues with carbon on the valves not letting them seat.
-
I'm impressed with your dedication, especially with the health issues. This EFI stuff is rocket science to me so I reached out to Dynojet.co.uk and they replied nope can't help you.
-
Dynojet is a tuner for bikes that are already EFI
I started by building my own and was in the process of writing the software when I discovered the guys in the UK that were miles ahead using the same hardware. So I abandoned my project and adopted theirs.
It is an open source (meaning free) software/hardware solution to EFI.
Meaning you can take their software and modify it to suit youself or use it as is. Yu can take the hardware design and make you own boards or purchase one from several suppliers.
It is called speeduino and was started by a guy in the UK named Josh Stewart. I joined his online forum and slack group and just watched and learned for a couple months. When I thought I had a grasp of his product I ordered one and did my first build on a Honda Magna about 2 years ago. I did my second one on a Connie C10 last year and I am now working on my second Connie with a few enhancements over the first. I have had a ton of fun. All the hard work pays off when your cranking it and you hear that first cough..cough..cough.. You know you are getting close.
If you want to look into it, the product is called speeduino . you can buy it from several vendors. the software is free and there is a forum similar to this with lots of knowledgeable people that can help you through your struggles. I am a fully baptized member of the forum.
Check them out. The forum https://speeduino.com/forum/index.php
Slack https://app.slack.com/client/T09MSCUFM/C282KTG6R
Speeduino wiki https://wiki.speeduino.com/en/home
-
It's almost a year now on the project and I want to finish it before the dirt nap ;)
However if I find the throttle bodies and computer/controller for the ZN1300 my next project will be the EFI 6 cyl tourer stripped down and maybe tuning that will be something to investigate.
-
Out again for a longer time period. Tuner studio in Auto tune mode. At first here are some hick-ups then things begin to smooth out. Sometime along the way the USB cam unplugged and Tuner studio couldn't save the tune values. But still much better than last time out. The way home was a real thrill and hard to stay below the speed limit.
https://youtu.be/eRuUCUVBNOk
-
Getting closer... :thumbs:
Ride safe, Ted
-
I've got the bike running really well now. a few more tweaks and I am done. But I have this nagging issue that I don't know the cause.
At low speed, usually when I have backed off the throttle and just coasting around a corner or pulling up to a stop sign I can hear a backfire through one of the throttle bodies. I am pretty sure it is cylinder number 2.
I've heard that lean mixture can cause backfires but it is only happening on one cylinder.
Valve sticking? Valve adjustment out of wack?
Any thoughts?
-
Check compression. If that cylinder is lowest, could be intake valve not seating. {Trash/carbon on seat}
Wild idea; Because of all your wiring/programing, mebbe that cylinder is occasionally getting a false signal to fire with the other bank of cylinders?
Ride safe, Ted
-
I'm thinking the same. Regarding the possible misfire theory. The best I can tell it is only on cylinder 2. since 2&3 share a coil I have doubts that it is a misfire. More likely an intake valve not closing all the way. I just ordered a compression gauge from Amazon. I should have an answer by Monday,
-
Well I am surprised! I was expecting to find a leak. With cylinder 2 being the lowest compression... but it's not so.
Compression. I read somewhere that 125 is the minimum to be expected. Its a new gauge and don't know how accurate it is but it sure shows a disparity between the cylinders.
1- 120
2- 115
3 -100
4 - 85.
I have lost track of what I have done to this Connie. This is my 3rd C10. I know I adjusted the valves on 2 of them. I am hoping that this is a valve adjustment and I can adjust this out. Otherwise I am looking at a valve job or a head change. Next move is to pull the valve cover and get the feeler gauge.
-
I checked the height of the pistons. 2-3 are same and 1-4 are the same, so no hydro-lock. Checked the valve settings. all intakes are .007 exhausts are .009 I did puts a little oil down each cylinder and got better results. 130, 135,129,100. So the rings are a bit worn. None of this explains why it is spitting out cyl 2. I suppose I need to pull the head and check the valve seats.
-
Pulling your head for valve seats won't fix the back fire out of number 2. (as it's consistently with the highest compression)
Look elsewhere..
Throwing out idea's;
The 2 cylinder's fire together; so (both) 2 and 3 have spark on power and exhaust strokes.
If you have unburn fuel in #2 on it's exhaust stroke. you would get that backfire
Mebbe an injector is leaking or miss firing?
Ride safe, Ted
-
If not for bad luck I'd have no luck at all.
Waited 3 days for Amazon to deliver a $22 thermostat for my bike. (going from 192° to 172°)
It was the WRONG one. Went to the Auto parts store around the corner and got the right one for $6.
Installing it everything was going great. But when I tightened the last nut on the housing I heard a "tink" .....I broke one of the three mounting ears off the thermostat housing. Leaks like a sieve!
Ordered a replacement, wont be here for a week.
-
Arghhhhhhh...
Ride safe, Ted
-
The replacement part came this afternoon. Took about 20 minutes to get it and the new 176° thermostat installed. Now the temperature hovers about 180°. Had a bit of a scare after running it for a while. The Air Fuel Ratio was stuck at 19, (1.36 )lambda which equates to VERY lean. I was thinking that the O2 sensor had gone bad but then I discovered that when I pulled the tank to gain access to the thermostat, I had accidentally disconnected injector on cylinder 4. That is where the O2 sensor is installed. Everything in working right now.
Tomorrow I will spend as much time as needed to finish tuning the EFI and looking for any last remaining bug-a-boos. After that I think I will call it finished and move on to m next project.
Picture of the source of the "tink" sound.....dont over tighten these bolts.
-
Got a new project to play with.
After riding a v-star and a Connie, this bike feels like a toy but it will set you back against the backrest coming off a stop sign.
Not certain I will convert this one to EFI. It seems fine like it is as long as I keep the tank full of zero ethanol gasoline.
-
Is that the one that they refer to as the Super Magna?
Ride safe, Ted
-
No, it's just your every day Honda Magna, VF750. 748cc, 86HP, 46 lb-ft torque. It's a real hoot to drive. I took the Connie out for a while this morning. The temperature gage was rock steady on 180° and it is running great. I'm back home now and going to look through the log file and see if there are any issues I need to address but I don't thin I have any remaining issues.
I think I am done !@*&(*&(*@!!!!
-
Almost forgot. I have not finished!. The whole idea behind this project was to solve the problem of going too lean when going quickly to wide open throttle. That is the purpose of the secondary throttle plates.
Now the bike is tuned I have enabled the secondary plates and they seem to behaving exactly as predicted. In addition of preventing it from going lean at WOT, when the plates are partially closed the air velocity increases.
https://youtu.be/AoWeyKTWaX8
-
So,,, "success"??
Ride safe, Ted
-
Yep, I'm done. Nothing left to do except put the plastics back on it, wash and wax.
My wife says 4 bikes are too many, I need to sell one of these Connies. My house is starting to look like a rally point.
I will get the first EFI connie in the garage (the naked one) and copy the tuning improvements I made on this one then get it ready to sell. It's a shame because with the new handle bars and pull back risers I can sit up straight and it drives like a sport bike.
-
One last tuning ride since changing the secondary throttle plate settings. I changed the lower end of the throttle plate setting to 20% and added about 5% more to the mid range. Bike is performing really well now. Temperature is rock steady at 180° no dead spots in the throttle. I am pleased with the results.
https://youtu.be/o6bZVoongNc
-
I need to sell this bike. Its been fun but my garage and back yard are over crowded. I need to thin the herd down to 2 bikes.
https://denver.craigslist.org/mcy/d/firestone-kawasaki-concours-fuel/7351450901.html
I have the first EFI bike (the naked one) back in the garage and I am making the upgrades that I learned to make it run as well as this one.
https://youtu.be/6qg0xdxRRd8
-
I have a heel-toe shifter on my yamaha and I have been spoiled by it. This one on my connie is difficult to get my toe under if I am wearing my boots.
Anyone ever modified the shifter pedal to heave a heel pad?
I just ordered a shifter from ebay and I am going to give it a try.
-
no problem with a welder. same token.. you can lengthen the stock one as well (ive done that before). I have a heel-toe on 2 small bikes i own, use the one on the trail125 quite a bit. Not so much on the 67 kawi.
-
I ran across this video and found it interesting.
https://youtu.be/ZRNfyz1Cgvg