I finally get it...abs

[rcannon409]

Things went wrong tonight as I was getting on the freeway. Looking back, I can see where I had several thinks I COULD have done, but I did not. The on ramp  was pointing directly into the evening sun.  The car in front of me threw out the anchor instead of accelerating up the ramp. God knows why.

I had to go into a hard brake mode on my 08.  It was not anything horribly dangerous, but a situation that made my heart race and gave me the adrenalin rush.   

I believe under ideal circumstances, with 3 or 4 practice runs, I might have been able to stop as fast as the abs system did. But give me a surprise situation, with adrenalin rush, and the abs is amazing. I wont buy another street bike without  it, and am damn glad this bike came with it. Todays deal was not life or death, but close enough that I get the point.

 I had messed around with the rear brake, in the rain, so I knew what the abs kicking in felt like.  Its probably not a bad idea to do the same. The sound and feeling is very different and  person has to be aware of not letting up on the levers when the system kick in.

[Scaffolder]

Nice post, even though you'll still have all the naysayers kicking it down. I love the whole idea of abs and you'll never appreciate it until you really feel it did a better than expected stop. I don't think I'll own another bike without abs. Now our linked brake system is another story......

[Shad0hawK]

Glad you came out ok. I had a close call where someone almost missed the exit they wanted and came real close to taking me out zooming across two lanes of traffic to make it. I guess they figured almost killing someone was better than the inconvenience of taking the next exit instead.

I am (sort of) one of those "naysayers" that realizes abs only shortens distance over a locked wheel, not an unlocked one. All ABS does is keep the wheel from locking to maintain control of the vehicle, which it does very well, especially in the wet where ABS really shines. My next bike will have ABS as well for that reason. But in doing what it does to maintain that control ABS actually sacrifices some braking distance by continually modulating the brakes.

[VirginiaJim]

It's saved my bacon at least two times.

[Whatever]

ABS actually sacrifices some braking distance by continually modulating the brakes.

I'd like to read the article that articulates that please.

[maxtog]

I'd like to read the article that articulates that please.

Technically, I believe he is correct.  More so with older ABS systems than with better/modern ones.  But only a small amount of theoretical max braking power is sacrificed with ABS.... and that is compared to a "super human" expert driver that is able to somehow brake, continuously, to the absolute edge of locking.  99.9% of people probably could never do that.  And for all of them, they would gain anywhere from a little more breaking power with ABS to a HUGE amount more, depending on skill.  More importantly, gaining that while maintaining directional/stability control.

[danl]

The 2nd day I had my Connie I took it up to the school parking lot to practice slow speed stuff and emergency braking. The ABS brakes work so well that your body's own inertia becomes more of an issue than the bike stopping. Going from 30mph and hitting the brakes hard, the bike simply stops. Your body wants to continue moving forward. I think if an emergency stop at 60 had to be made, that would be more of a factor than the bike itself.

[texrider]

ABS keeps the shiny side up, and is second in awesomeness only to KIPASS! 

[Shad0hawK]

I'd like to read the article that articulates that please.

http://www.ridedrive.co.uk/driving-tips-03d.htm

[Shad0hawK]

Technically, I believe he is correct.  More so with older ABS systems than with better/modern ones.  But only a small amount of theoretical max braking power is sacrificed with ABS.... and that is compared to a "super human" expert driver that is able to somehow brake, continuously, to the absolute edge of locking.  99.9% of people probably could never do that.  And for all of them, they would gain anywhere from a little more breaking power with ABS to a HUGE amount more, depending on skill.  More importantly, gaining that while maintaining directional/stability control.

actually it applies to newer systems as well. one does not need to be a "superhuman" to outbrake ABS on dry pavement..anyone that can do a stoppie (including myself) can. practice makes for better braking even with ABS, braking distances are shorter even on ABS bikes by using threshold braking methods we see this in the video below. the ABs bike is a BMW S1000, which has one of if not the best ABS systems in the world.

Bremsvergleich BMW S1000RR VS. KTM Super Duke

[Scaffolder]

I'll take the BMW and keep both rubbers down. I also think the KTM is slimmer by about 20-50 pounds.

[redbarber]

I am sooooo envious of all of the super riders on these forums, who can consistantly prove with these undeniable videos that ABS sucks.  I remember in the movie Heartbreak Ridge, where the first seargent tells that A**hole major that it "...sure does help to know exactly where the ambush is going to take place".  Likewise, all those cones and markers sure do allow those riders to predict exactly where they are going to need to stop.  I doubt they get much of an adrenaline surge when they see those cones exactly where they expected to see them. 
As for me, I think these continuous debates are rediculous.  I'm never going to know in advance where I am going to need to stop suddenly and perfectly.  I'm pretty sure that if a cement truck suddenly pulled into their lane from a blind alley, even those uber-pro riders might be just a bit surprised and shook up.   All that excitement is pretty sure to mess with their finely honed modulation skills. 
The only way to practice braking for an emergency, life-or-death stop would be to practice having the s**t scared out of you by a real threat.  Any other practice would be training for a predictable, planned stop.  Hell, even I can make that stop 9 out of 10 times.   Here's a practice regimin:
1) Line up about 30 cars, side by side, facing your practice strip.  Put a friend in each car, and have them keep the engine running, and the car in gear.  Now start riding past them at a good speed (60-80 mph).  Instruct your friends to pick one of them at random to occasionally pull forward into your path suddenly without warning.  They must not give you any hint which car it will be, nor should a car pull out on every run.  It would be even more effective if you did not know where they would be parked, perhaps along a 4-5 mile stretch, with lots of "normal" cars also parked there.  Now you might start to get that adrenaline rush to work with.
2) Have the same friends, in the same cars, drive in the opposite direction to the direction you are riding.  Instruct them to randomly pull directly into your lane at the last minute.  Practice stopping before you hit them head-on.  Again, no advance warning should be allowed, nor should you even know which of the cars coming at you contains one of your friends.  An added bonus here is that a total stranger might even "help" you by actually pulling into your lane.  Great!
For all of you "I can stop better without ABS" people, I believe you are fooling yourselves.  You aren't fooling or convincing me.  There is nothing more dangerous than overconfidence.  Frankly, I couldn't care less what you can do with your "track days".  This is the real world, and it's going to kill all of us before it's through.
(Ow, twisted my ankle jumping down off my soap box.)

[Shad0hawK]

I am sooooo envious of all of the super riders on these forums, who can consistantly prove with these undeniable videos that ABS sucks.  I remember in the movie Heartbreak Ridge, where the first seargent tells that A**hole major that it "...sure does help to know exactly where the ambush is going to take place". 

 i never said ABS sucks so there is no "debate", i merely pointed out on dry pavement ABS increases stopping distance as a trade off for the ability to maintain control and even went so far as to say my next bike WILL have ABS, since i do not own a car (and have not in nearly 4 years) i ride in the rain alot.

 the video illustrates that progessive braking decreases stopping distance even on a bike with ABS. the first run the non abs bike outstopped the abs bike well over a bike length. by the third run the distance was much shorter...ABS is a good thing, but it is a tool to compliment a rider's skill, not replace it. ABS is designed to do one thing and one thing only. to keep the wheels from locking up. that is why it is called Anti lock Brake System...get on loose and irregular surfaces and that stopping distance increases even more.

as for practice exercises: i get that every day in DFW traffic; like i said i do not own a car and have not in 4 years..so that is lots of practice sometimes like 2 weeks ago in the incident i mentioned in my OP it gets hairier than most. i hit the brakes hard and missed hitting the back of a car that cut me off by inches entering an elevated ramp. i could not go to the left or right because of concrete barriers... the last thing i wanted to do was go flying over the car in front of me on a curved and elevated exit ramp! i cant help but wonder if my bike would have stopped so quickly if it had ABS.

[urlhttp://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/Other/RACV%20ABS%20braking%20system%20effectiveness.pdf][/url]

[rcannon409]

One thing that impressed me with the abs system is that it had taken action by  the time I understood there was a threat.  I'm not talking minutes, but fractions of a second.  By the time my brain decided to do something (besides heavy braking), the abs had cycled on/off many times.

I can do stoppies and slide the front tire on my dirt bike or sv650. Its no problem when screwing around.   I dont know if I could do the same when that fight or flight feeling kicks in.

I dont like the electronics either. The Concours 14abs was priced right and I needed a bike that could carry a passenger in comfort.  Thats the only reason I ended up with abs. At first, I felt like I was stuck with it. 

[stevewfl]

ABS has been proven to reduce total braking time both by the pro's on the track and testing on the street. 

[Shad0hawK]

One thing that impressed me with the abs system is that it had taken action by  the time I understood there was a threat.  I'm not talking minutes, but fractions of a second.  By the time my brain decided to do something (besides heavy braking), the abs had cycled on/off many times.

I can do stoppies and slide the front tire on my dirt bike or sv650. Its no problem when screwing around.   I dont know if I could do the same when that fight or flight feeling kicks in.

I dont like the electronics either. The Concours 14abs was priced right and I needed a bike that could carry a passenger in comfort.  Thats the only reason I ended up with abs. At first, I felt like I was stuck with it.

if you felt it kick in it was doing what it was supposed to do every rainy morning i get on the bike i sure wish i had it.

[Son of Pappy]

The best safety device resides between ones ears......  Riding above a persons comfort zone will get you killed, regardless of what system is in use.  I'm getting tired of being berated because I prefer non ABS.  Ride your ride, I'll ride mine.  I won't try to convince anyone that a non ABS bike is better, nor will I try to convince anyone that ABS is a must.  I just like the way MY BIKE brakes, it is what I ride and what I practice on. 

ABS threads are just like tire threads, or oil threads.  It all comes down to a persons opinion (mine smells like roses BTW).  I would make a small wager that many who feel ABS is a must ride with their brakes covered, a practice I consider deadly, based on human reaction when a panic situation happens.  In these cases ABS is probably a good idea, but IMHO training is far more valuable then any mechanical device.  Relying on ABS to save your life is as foolish as me thinking I can stop better then ABS.  My skill comes through hours in the saddle, riding and training, not in a device.  Want to feel safer?  Allow for greater following distances, learn to anticipate, adjust speed accordingly.  Or just rely on your ABS, no sweat off my brow.

Counter rant off, I used a step ladder to get off my soap box, it was a fixed variety, non adjustable, less chance for failure

I am sooooo envious of all of the super riders on these forums, who can consistantly prove with these undeniable videos that ABS sucks.  I remember in the movie Heartbreak Ridge, where the first seargent tells that A**hole major that it "...sure does help to know exactly where the ambush is going to take place".  Likewise, all those cones and markers sure do allow those riders to predict exactly where they are going to need to stop.  I doubt they get much of an adrenaline surge when they see those cones exactly where they expected to see them. 
As for me, I think these continuous debates are rediculous.  I'm never going to know in advance where I am going to need to stop suddenly and perfectly.  I'm pretty sure that if a cement truck suddenly pulled into their lane from a blind alley, even those uber-pro riders might be just a bit surprised and shook up.   All that excitement is pretty sure to mess with their finely honed modulation skills. 
The only way to practice braking for an emergency, life-or-death stop would be to practice having the s**t scared out of you by a real threat.  Any other practice would be training for a predictable, planned stop.  Hell, even I can make that stop 9 out of 10 times.   Here's a practice regimin:
1) Line up about 30 cars, side by side, facing your practice strip.  Put a friend in each car, and have them keep the engine running, and the car in gear.  Now start riding past them at a good speed (60-80 mph).  Instruct your friends to pick one of them at random to occasionally pull forward into your path suddenly without warning.  They must not give you any hint which car it will be, nor should a car pull out on every run.  It would be even more effective if you did not know where they would be parked, perhaps along a 4-5 mile stretch, with lots of "normal" cars also parked there.  Now you might start to get that adrenaline rush to work with.
2) Have the same friends, in the same cars, drive in the opposite direction to the direction you are riding.  Instruct them to randomly pull directly into your lane at the last minute.  Practice stopping before you hit them head-on.  Again, no advance warning should be allowed, nor should you even know which of the cars coming at you contains one of your friends.  An added bonus here is that a total stranger might even "help" you by actually pulling into your lane.  Great!
For all of you "I can stop better without ABS" people, I believe you are fooling yourselves.  You aren't fooling or convincing me.  There is nothing more dangerous than overconfidence.  Frankly, I couldn't care less what you can do with your "track days".  This is the real world, and it's going to kill all of us before it's through.
(Ow, twisted my ankle jumping down off my soap box.)

[redbarber]

My apologies, SoP, It was not my intent to stir you up.  I have no problems with those who have made a personal decision to reject ABS technology.  My beef is with those who actively try to convince others to follow suit.  Those so-called proof videos that are always dragged out and posted when this subject comes up, only prove that under perfect conditions, with prior warning, a professional rider can out-stop an ABS equipped machine with an idiot at the controls.  I worry that some newbie will make his or her buying decision based on the assumption that THEY are the pro rider, and not the idiot. 
I am on your side with regard to linked brakes.  I don't consider them to be a part of the ABS debate, but a separate technology, which I do not embrace myself.  My 2009 does not suffer from linked brakes, and I am glad of it.
One counter point though.  When you brake well, the ABS does not usually come into play anyway.  Just as a tight rope walker who is really skilled should never need a net.  But make a mistake, and the choice to forego the net could be a life changer, or even a life ender.

[Son of Pappy]

Cool with me Red, my counter point is some replace skill with ABS, working in harmony they are awesome, rely on ABS to save your skin and Murphy will surely rise his ugly head.
Thanks for the courtsey, it's quite refreshing.

Chet

[lather]

One thing that impressed me with the abs system is that it had taken action by  the time I understood there was a threat.  I'm not talking minutes, but fractions of a second.  By the time my brain decided to do something (besides heavy braking), the abs had cycled on/off many times.

I don't understand. You pulled the brake lever hard enough to activate ABS  BEFORE you recognized a threat?