Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: martin_14 on October 10, 2011, 01:56:07 AM
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You guys know how much we like finding the limits of our bikes, and I'm no exception.
Yesterday afternoon I was crossing the Alps from Italy to Austria in one of their best points (try "Passo Paluzza" in Google Maps to see how perfect it is) and just after I passed the last chance to refuel on the italian side and enter the mountains, the low fuel beacon came on. At the pace I have been doing (35 mpg), that meant that I would make it to the first city in Austria, some 30 miles ahead, so I didn't turn around. Looking at the first picture, you can guess that this was my last big trip across the alps until next year :(
What I didn't foresee is that I did a slightly more agressive use of the right wrist than anticipated (22 mpg on the way up). So when I finally past the highest point (5100 feet above sea level, so plenty of snow -> see picture of me regreting taking that pass) I started to worry. I quick math told me that I would have to go down with the engine off when possible. I know this is not that smart safety wise, but the surface on the austrian side is so bad and the road so curvy, that you have to stay below 30 mph anyway. The guy following me agreed, although his K1600 GT (another post coming regarding this) had fuel for another 50 miles at least.
I checked on my GPS and sure enough it showed me a Shell some miles ahead. But in the last curve before the main road to the fuel station, I tried to accelerate and the engined coughed. I was still almost a mile away. Then, half a mile before the Shell, I saw an Agip fuel station and just as I was driving in, the engine died. Just to be sure, I started it again and it died immediately. Another push at the start button and nothing, so I was sure the tank was as empty as it was going to be.
So I first refueled up to the metal plate (second picture) and it was exactly the 22 liters (5.8 US gallons) that the manual states, and I put another half a liter (about 0.12 US gallons), which is about a quarter of an inch above the metal plate. I really didn't dare to put anything else, but I remember a couple of guys here mentioning they fueled 6 gallons or so...
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Thanks for doing this (running her bone dry that is).
Now we know that the tank can hold right at 6 US gal's. (22.5 liters = 5.943871 US Gal's)
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Hope you didnt damage your fuel pump!!!!! :o
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Great post! Good thing you had the mighty powah of "K-P" on-board :stirpot: and it lead you safely :chugbeer: to a fuel point! So tell us Martin, What did she start like after that? Were you using "Pure gas" or ethanol?
By the way, nice snow in your pic!
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@The Pope: no problem. Anything in the name of science... :o
@Pokey: I don't think so. I never wait so long to refuel, usually doing it just after the light comes on. This time it cought me off guard. But I'll ask the dealer this week during the 36000 km service. My rear tire is almost slick now, and the front shows a clear cupping, so new Angel's are on its way.
@Restless: I always use "pure gas". If I wanted to save money I'd take the bus. ;) She started as usual, nothing strange. Maybe it had to turn an extra half a second, but that was it. And I'm sorry, but "nice" and "snow" do not belong in the same sentence!!! >:( ;D
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I always use "pure gas". If I wanted to save money I'd take the bus. ;) She started as usual, nothing strange. Maybe it had to turn an extra half a second, but that was it. And I'm sorry, but "nice" and "snow" do not belong in the same sentence!!! >:( ;D
Good to hear one can still find "pure gas" and have a choice...here in WI few stations left that you can even find it. Still curious on the "start-up after fill-up"...did she fire right up?
...And you're absolutely right on regarding the snow thing! Won't be long here before we see the dreaded "white death". :(
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I always fill to the metal plate and I wondered how much usable fuel there is. Now I know. Thank you!
I travel a lot to Villach but so far not in the summer. I have always planned that if I get there in the summer I will rent a bike and ride some of those roads. Now I know a good one to try. Thanks again!
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Good work Martin. Glad to see you pushing the limits on traction, distance, and riding season for us ;).
I have put 6.18 gallons in mine (per gas pump reading), and the biked had not stalled (though I was sure it would before I got it to the station).
My fueling technique is to fill full blast until it reaches the metal plate, then fuel at the slowest controllable flow rate until it reaches the top of the neck (just once), then quit. After it reaches the top of the neck, it will bubble down to the plate. I do this consistently each and every fuel up.
I don't recommend fueling this way if you are only going to ride a few miles and park though. That will only result in a puddle of fuel under your bike after you walk away.
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Never road any of my street bikes in snow... And the on/off road bikes I have not for very far... I see snow mounding up on the toe of your boots :o not something I will probably ever have happen, except on a four wheeler... nice pic and thanks for sharing :thumbs:
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if i fill up as i am starting my ride, i always fill as far up past the metal plate as i can.
i have gone 210 mile without the low fuel warning. I try to not push it. i like keeping the pump submerged.
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Nice.
I rode 42 miles on flashing low fuel yesterday on the way back from GA and it held 5.6 gallons. I was babying it though. No gas for a long stretch while on the Okefenokee Swamp Trail.
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I've met folks who like to play" how far can I coast downhill". Generally with the engine off.
While you may have had no choice, it's a very bad thing to do to your transmission as the gears are force-fed engine oil from the oil pump and with a bike that's rolling in neutral with no oil the secondary or output shaft is still turning relative to road speed.
Fretka
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I typically always refill at around 200 miles no matter what.
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Every 160 miles for me...every other day.
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I was late heading for work,and I had put 30m. on the trip as soon as I noticed fuel warning.....so right after 30 hit ...... glided ( out of petrol) in to station and fretted about running dry and the fuel pump--It started right up and runs the same-so is there members that have experienced the out of gas ---lose your fuel pump issue ??
Mike
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I've met folks who like to play" how far can I coast downhill". Generally with the engine off.
While you may have had no choice, it's a very bad thing to do to your transmission as the gears are force-fed engine oil from the oil pump and with a bike that's rolling in neutral with no oil the secondary or output shaft is still turning relative to road speed.
Fretka
Because of your turbo conversion I formed a sort of prejudice about you, and it is as follows: you know what you're talking about. That being said, 2 points:
1. I'm not one of those folks. I don't play with the bike downhill or such because in the event of an unknown, I want to have all the capabilities of the bike (braking or accelerating) to complete the jurney alive ;D As you said, I just didn't have a choice (as it turned out).
2. I don't think it's that bad. I designed transmissions (F1) and, although I'm not into tribology, I know three things brake the oil film on the tooth and bearings, leading to metal-to-metal contact: torque (or force), speed and temperature.
- There is only enough torque transmitted from the wheel to the gearbox to overcome internal frictions up to the clutch. It's not little, but it's not much, probably less than 10 Nm, 80% of which is actually used to move the bevel gear, which is in its own casing with its own oil.
- I was coasting at not more than 20 or 30 mph, and only for about 2 miles. The speed of the secondary shaft was therefore not high, and it was free to rotate inside the gearwheels.
- Regarding temperature, it was cold weather and the bike was fine, so that wasn't an issue.
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Thanx Martin! But there are much better reasons not to like me than the turbo stuff! ;)
With your experience designing trannies, I do certainly defer to your knowledge. In fact I'd love to hear some of your stories concerning sequential "rapid shifting" and the use of carbon fiber vs. titanium construction! I read Peter Wright's work on F-1 transmissions and these boxes will cycle thru all seven ratios and back again in somewhat less than a second! I also have some schematics from XTRAC, did you do any work for them?
My comments about coasting were meant mainly for those who like to coast with the engine off or tow their bike with the back wheel on the ground. As you say, you had zero choice in the matter.
Fretka
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I was under some stupid impression that if I fill past the plate, it will just drain out the overflow emissions stuff. Are you sure past the plate is usable fuel? Please no justifications of... Well I get 220 miles on a tank when I do that. Anyone know?
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Yes, you can safely fill the tank past the anti- splash plate. I fill mine about 3/8" over that plate whenever the fuel pump I am using will throttle enough to allow the tank to be filled slowly; you cannot fill the tank that high with the fuel nozzle flowing a lot of fuel without splashing it all over the place. The tank can actually be filled about 3/4" above that plate but you have to ride right away or the fuel will expand and leak out of the tank (onto the ground right under the left foot peg). The fuel tank vent ends at the very top of the tank and well above that deflector plate in the filler neck.
Brian
I was under some stupid impression that if I fill past the plate, it will just drain out the overflow emissions stuff. Are you sure past the plate is usable fuel? Please no justifications of... Well I get 220 miles on a tank when I do that. Anyone know?
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When I know that I won't be stopping for awhile, especially on a long trip, I'll fill mine to the top as well.
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Thanks Brian, good info.
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Thanx Martin! But there are much better reasons not to like me than the turbo stuff! ;)
With your experience designing trannies, I do certainly defer to your knowledge. In fact I'd love to hear some of your stories concerning sequential "rapid shifting" and the use of carbon fiber vs. titanium construction! I read Peter Wright's work on F-1 transmissions and these boxes will cycle thru all seven ratios and back again in somewhat less than a second! I also have some schematics from XTRAC, did you do any work for them?
My comments about coasting were meant mainly for those who like to coast with the engine off or tow their bike with the back wheel on the ground. As you say, you had zero choice in the matter.
Fretka
Actually they (XTRAC) did some work for us (BMW-Sauber F1), together with some other English companies like the usual suspects: Ricardo and AP Racing. Those Brits have a totally different approach to things compared with the Germans: pragmatic vs. analytic. With the pace of development in F1, German ideas tend to get from one season to the next one, whereas English ideas are developed within 2 races.
As you point out, those sequential gearboxes, either with one or two gear shift barrels configurations, can go from 1st to 7th gear and back in less than a second. It sounded like a machine gun, I don't mean an Uzi... more like an electric Gaitling type. It was shown to me on my first day at work (fresh from university) and I just couldn't believe my eyes. Watching that mechanism working was like that movie K-Pax, in which Prot (Kevin Spacey) does his demonstration of faster-than-light travel. Awesome.
About CF gearbox housings... I don't know what you're talking about, because if I said I do, I would get shot ;)
BTW, today I spoke to somebody who developes powertrain concepts for passenger vehicles, and he explained me that the gearwheels and rolling bearings are lubricated by "splashed oil" as opposed to injected oil like it happens in the engine (he said it in German, and I'm not a native English speaker, so I hope you understand me) so the lubrication does not stop when you turn off the engine. However, hypod gears (final transmission) are designed to transmit torque from the shaft to the wheel and not the other way around, but still, those things are very tough and can take some abuse from us.
One final point that I have to check is the cardan joints. I don't know where the lubrication for those comes from. Do you? I'll ask around here when I have the chance.
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Yes, you can safely fill the tank past the anti- splash plate. I fill mine about 3/8" over that plate whenever the fuel pump I am using will throttle enough to allow the tank to be filled slowly; you cannot fill the tank that high with the fuel nozzle flowing a lot of fuel without splashing it all over the place. Brian
Schweet! did it this morning, and got a lil more go-go juice in the tank. Thanks for the tip.
Will
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You actually worked for Sauber F1? That must have been awesome!
The cardan joints on the C-14 propeller shaft use needle bearings packed in grease like a typical automotive U-joint. I pulled my shaft out to grease the splines when the exploding rear drive terror hit the forum several months back. There were some reports of dry needle bearings but mine were packed. My shaft never made the knock sound that many reported.
Actually they (XTRAC) did some work for us (BMW-Sauber F1), together with some other English companies like the usual suspects: Ricardo and AP Racing. Those Brits have a totally different approach to things compared with the Germans: pragmatic vs. analytic. With the pace of development in F1, German ideas tend to get from one season to the next one, whereas English ideas are developed within 2 races.
As you point out, those sequential gearboxes, either with one or two gear shift barrels configurations, can go from 1st to 7th gear and back in less than a second. It sounded like a machine gun, I don't mean an Uzi... more like an electric Gaitling type. It was shown to me on my first day at work (fresh from university) and I just couldn't believe my eyes. Watching that mechanism working was like that movie K-Pax, in which Prot (Kevin Spacey) does his demonstration of faster-than-light travel. Awesome.
About CF gearbox housings... I don't know what you're talking about, because if I said I do, I would get shot ;)
BTW, today I spoke to somebody who developes powertrain concepts for passenger vehicles, and he explained me that the gearwheels and rolling bearings are lubricated by "splashed oil" as opposed to injected oil like it happens in the engine (he said it in German, and I'm not a native English speaker, so I hope you understand me) so the lubrication does not stop when you turn off the engine. However, hypod gears (final transmission) are designed to transmit torque from the shaft to the wheel and not the other way around, but still, those things are very tough and can take some abuse from us.
One final point that I have to check is the cardan joints. I don't know where the lubrication for those comes from. Do you? I'll ask around here when I have the chance.
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Keep in mind that most pumps are off, in other words, they read higher than the volume actually pumped. In a personal random survey in a years period I found 90% of the stations to be charging for more gas than you actually pump, some with margins as high as 20% off. I reported all of these to the state AG's office (as per a public notification program) and at the last test the biggest offenders were still ripping folks off, and wouldn't you know it, these are the stations that are located right off interstates far from large cities. Honest gas pumps seem to be a rarity these days.
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Actually they (XTRAC) did some work for us (BMW-Sauber F1), together with some other English companies like the usual suspects: Ricardo and AP Racing. Those Brits have a totally different approach to things compared with the Germans: pragmatic vs. analytic. With the pace of development in F1, German ideas tend to get from one season to the next one, whereas English ideas are developed within 2 races.
As you point out, those sequential gearboxes, either with one or two gear shift barrels configurations, can go from 1st to 7th gear and back in less than a second. It sounded like a machine gun, I don't mean an Uzi... more like an electric Gaitling type. It was shown to me on my first day at work (fresh from university) and I just couldn't believe my eyes. Watching that mechanism working was like that movie K-Pax, in which Prot (Kevin Spacey) does his demonstration of faster-than-light travel. Awesome.
About CF gearbox housings... I don't know what you're talking about, because if I said I do, I would get shot ;)
BTW, today I spoke to somebody who developes powertrain concepts for passenger vehicles, and he explained me that the gearwheels and rolling bearings are lubricated by "splashed oil" as opposed to injected oil like it happens in the engine (he said it in German, and I'm not a native English speaker, so I hope you understand me) so the lubrication does not stop when you turn off the engine. However, hypod gears (final transmission) are designed to transmit torque from the shaft to the wheel and not the other way around, but still, those things are very tough and can take some abuse from us.
One final point that I have to check is the cardan joints. I don't know where the lubrication for those comes from. Do you? I'll ask around here when I have the chance.
Martin: most of what I post here is already known to you so I direct the following to those who might find this stuff interesting.
As to your German friend, he seems to hold the prevailing impression that gears are splash fed. Well, maybe back a few generations ago they were but as you know with F-1 boxes that use air-oil separators prior to the accumulator a moments cavitation or air bubble in the hydraulic/gear oil (F-1 boxes use Neo oil that doubles as hydraulic fluid) and your day is done!
Modern bikes use pressurized engine oil to lube the gear cluster by way of internal shaft passages all the way to the bevel/output cluster found on our beloved Connie. Some F-1 trannys also use a fine oil spray to lubricate the mesh as well. As far as I know, just about all modern gearboxes do not run in an oil bath anymore due to drag and frothing of the oil. All the above may be B.S. if you're talking Harley-Davidson tho. ::)
It is fascinating how much the f-1 boxes and motorcycles are alike, essentially identical except for electro-hydraulic gear selection (moog valves) as well as the clutches they both use. Where things get interesting with F-1 is in the differentials that builders use but I'll leave that to Martin!
Freka
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Hi Fretka,
sorry for the delay but I just wanted to be sure before stating something. Regarding F1 boxes, your description is accurate, and makes me wonder how you know so much. This is not a field in which many people know what they are talking about, not because it's complicated, just because there aren't many guys working on it, and they are mainly in Europe. Even the japanese teams are based here, either in England or in Germany. Let me just state that, at the risk of looking that I'm trying to show off, I have the luck to work with the people actually designing them.
Anyway, one of the differences between bike gearboxes and F1 cars gearboxes is how the gear teeth are oiled. In both cases, the rolling bearings are, indeed, oiled with channels running inside the secondary shaft. The reason why an oil bath is not used on a F1 car (or motorcycles) gearbox is simple: if the gears have to dip their teeth up to the meshing line (and at 22000 rpm in the case of F1 car engines) in oil, they are robbing too much power. "Too much" being about 2 HP (out of typically 800) and that, in F1, is a lot. Specially because by precisely applying tiny doses of oil to the teeth (with a device not entirely different from the common rail used in Diesel injection, just a much lower pressure) one can achieve the same lubrication, so this is what F1 cars use. The oil amount in the gearbox casing that one can collect at the end of the race is probably smaller than a small measure of whisky. However, the worst thing that happens is not those 2 HP lost, but the foam that the oil is turned into and hinders the pump's work, heat exchange and what not. Hence the injectors, to limit the amount of oil in the casing, and the careful design of the bottom of that casing to collect the oil and direct it to the reservoir. Another reason is that the oil in the gearbox is separated from the oil in the engine, unlike most bikes (bar the boxer engines from BMW, for example).
In bikes, the gears still get lubricated by the oil sprayed in the casing, not any injection, and underneath the gear cluster the oil gets collected. I have no clue how this is achieved in the C14, but I take your word for it and asume there is some sort of injection; however, I'll keep looking into it.
PS: your disclaimer about HDs was unnecessary. Unless your definition of "motorcycle" is very, veeeery broad... ;)
PS2: an F1 diff is just a normal spur gear diff, except that it should desintegrate after 4 weekends (about 2000 miles). If it lasts longer, it was too heavy!!!
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now that I run her dry once and I know that (at least according to the pump) exactly 22 lts or 5,8 US gallons fit in the tank (up to the antisplash plate), I've been playing with how much I can fit above that. Of course I can only do this if I know that I will be riding the bike for at least a good 20 miles so when the fuel expands it doesn't come out the vent or something. So far I managed to put an extra 1,2 liters or 0,32 US gallons, which would elevate the total to a decent 6,13 US gallons.
@Fretka: I made several misunderstandings in our technical discussion about how the rolling bearings and mesh get lubricated, both while reading you and while listening to the explanation in German. I think now I have my thoughts straight and I can see that you never stated that the mesh is lubricated with injected oil, which is what I understood on the begining, just the bearings on the output shaft. Also, the guy who explained me how some BMW motorcycles (mainly those from the K-line) are lubricated never said that the gears dip in oil :-\ Sorry about that!
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Back a few years ago, McClaren tried to use an electro-hydraulic actuated differential that would direct the torque split (using two small clutches) hence giving greater control over the yaw characteristics of the car's handling, called "fiddle brakes". This is pretty common now on road cars but was dis-qualified by FIA. Seems like an awful lot of useful technology has been outlawed by FIA in order to keep the speeds down.
Fretka
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Back a few years ago, McClaren tried to use an electro-hydraulic actuated differential that would direct the torque split (using two small clutches) hence giving greater control over the yaw characteristics of the car's handling, called "fiddle brakes". This is pretty common now on road cars but was dis-qualified by FIA. Seems like an awful lot of useful technology has been outlawed by FIA in order to keep the speeds down.
Fretka
FIA, and particularly Mosley, are so money oriented that it makes even the Citibank look like a bunch of "save the whales" voluntaries. Did you ever try to send a postcard from inside a circuit? Guess who is getting a bite from everything you mail. Or every coke you buy. Or... You get the picture.
Indeed, politics and the level of dictatorship necessary to govern the "creative" interpretations of the rules (only allowed to Ferrari) have been keeping really neat technologies out of the sport, some of which would be very usable in street cars that you and I can buy.
I have to agree, though, in that F1 is about cars as much as drivers, and technology would favour the former and relativize the latter, which in my opinion would be a pitty. However, I would rather simply allow 1000 cc engines and as much cr@p (turbos, compressors, 7 valves per cylinder and whatever the engineers can come up with) as possible. I want to see them using boosters in the curves (like the space shuttle), adjustable aerodynamics, throw spikes at the car behind you... the lot. 8)
Sorry, rant over.
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I have to agree, though, in that F1 is about cars as much as drivers, and technology would favour the former and relativize the latter, which in my opinion would be a pitty. However, I would rather simply allow 1000 cc engines and as much cr@p (turbos, compressors, 7 valves per cylinder and whatever the engineers can come up with) as possible. I want to see them using boosters in the curves (like the space shuttle), adjustable aerodynamics, throw spikes at the car behind you... the lot. 8)
Now THAT would make F1 more interesting. <LOL>
FIA = Ferrari International Assistance
I have long thought that they need to radically reduce downforce, but loosen up engine regs.
Bring back the days of the Ferrari V12s.
Fastest thing in a straight line but couldn't corner worth a damn. ;-)
However, since Dan Whartons death in Vegas I can see that they will be trying to reduce the speeds again, even if that wasn't an F1 race.
I know it's a pain but some tracks out there cannot host F1 because their Public Liability Insurance only covers them to 200Mph track speeds.
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Don't mean to hijack, but while we are on the topic.
I'm a big F1 and not interested in top end speeds, any fool can go fast in a straight line (no offense to drag racers). What I'd like to see is more focus on handling and the removal of aero effects in corners which reduce the effect of driver input/skill.
I'd like to see more effort on mechanical grip/handling features and a push to introduce innovation in engine design with some limits versus a standard engine.
I understand the need to keep costs down, but remove a $XXXX Million dollar wind tunnel and flow dynamics from the equation and I think you can get back to pen and paper creative thinking.
I also think they should re-introduce refuelling. A) there needs to be more strategy involved B) the driver needs to deal with changing weight/handling dynamics.
Being a pilot of a very fast car with minimal variables....boring.
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I think we all agree that F1 has become a parade without any passing or relevancy to our automobile experience. Remember the days of turbos? Fan cars, Lotus twin chassis cars and most of the rest of somewhat crazy innovation that used to be F1, I miss that stuff and absolutely detest the latest wing or aero-appendage silliness!
I also miss 2-strokes, but in the sanitization of motor racing current these days, the only drama that can be found in many venues is political in nature (soap-opera B.S.).
Message to FIA: evolve or die.
Fretka
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Guys, this is totally off track now. If you want to continue this conversation in Open, by all means.
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Guys, this is totally off track now. If you want to continue this conversation in Open, by all means.
sorry! :-[
(I can't say I didn't see it coming...)
But it's Fretka's fault because I was playing in the sandbox with my green plastic bucket and shovel and... and... and he came and pushed me... and...
See, I told you "bunch of 6th graders" was an overestimation. ;)
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I don't think 6th graders would be talking about the same subject you guys are. :)