I have for years dreamed of changing my bike(s) over from carburetor to fuel injection. I love the earlier bikes but I hate to deal the problems that come with carburetors. Every bike I own has multiple carburetors that require cleaning, tuning and syncing to get optimum performance. And occasionally here in Colorado I need to pull them to get the green gunk cleared out of the jets.The concourse is a dream compared to my three Honda magnas. But still it is a pain to have to remove the seat, tank, and side panels just to get to the carbs. One of my least favorite things to do is try to fit 4 carbs back into a V4 motor.
So i want to retrofit my bikes to fuel injection but I simply cant afford it. Good grief ! have you seen some of the prices of kits? $$$$$$
Unless I am missing something, It would require spending more than the bike is worth to retrofit it.
Does anyone else have this dream and has anyone found a economical solution?
My price point is about $300.00 What is yours?
Thanks Jim.
If I do decide to pursue my own design I will try to make it as affordable as possible. I have 5 bikes on my property that could use it.
I think it would be a very interesting and learning project
Well I was talking to you BDF but I couldn't think of a lot of first names to go with that acronym so I decided to call you Jim instead. If you prefer BDF then ok.
You seem to have a grasp of the techy side of implementing what I want. You understand pulse width and fuel/air mixture ratio control. So I am glad that you have responded. I took a look at the megasquirt system and it seems to be just what I want to build but .. $250 for just the control CPU it a bit much considering all the sensors, injectors and other addons you need to make a complete system... It's not a turn key solution that is going to be as cheap as I want.
The megasquirt CPU kit might be a great head start to help me with my own design. And maybe it is worth spending a few hundred more to develop the first article but I need 4 more at about $300 each.
At any rate I need to do a lot more study before I embark on my own design if at all.
Yep, you can call me BDF or Jim as you like. And yep, you should study the available information to better understand what is required and the many different ways you may be able to get it to work.
Again, best of luck going forward.
Brian
I always thought the giveaway was signing all your posts "Brian" Jim ;)
You sed; its injector should be triggered just a few degrees after his companion was ignited for the power stroke.
Question; as the timing changes as RPM's increase. Do you want to control injectors by the signal to the plug (that changes) , or the signal at the pick up Coil (which doesn't change)?
ie; Do injectors also change their firing point, based on RPM?
Ride safe, Ted
{I think}
There is a vacuum port on the side of each cylinder right next to the intake valve. It is normally used for synchronizing the carbs but it would be useful to determine which cylinder is on the intake stroke.
Those ports are located before the valves, and will have vacuum when another cylinder is on intake.
{because you have a manifold instead of individual carbs or throttle bodies}.
You are right while one cylinder of the pair is on the power stroke the other would be on the intake and would use the fuel from the injector. I want to believe that sharing an injector between cylinders would be enough. But on the magna the pairs are about 5.5 inches apart. Putting the injector between them would put the injector about 6 inches from the intake valve. Its worth thinking about.
This is what I was worried about around post #34-37. It might be overcome by injecting the fuel a little e bit earlier.
But, you have an intake stroke every 180* of rotation, so {based on BDF's 85% note) part of your fuel charge will probably go to another cylinder.
NOTE: because the injectors fire so quickly, spraying/fogging the fuel into your plenum may disperse the fuel just fine..
On a Connie the distance between cylinder 1 and 4 would make sharing an injector very difficult to pull off. But if there is an injector per cylinder the Connie will be a lot easier to work with than a V4 manga.
If you pair injectors as you were planning, 1/2 and 3/4 would be paired.
I am inclined to put an injector on each cylinder, as close to the intake valve as I can get it. I think this will be less problematic.
Agreed..
I am still awaiting the arrival of the throttle body and the injector bungs. (not sure I will be using the bungs) . There is so much to do . Connectors, harness, prototype circuit boards. It a lot to keep in your head. I want to rush it but I know this is going to take forever.
Agreed.
Ride safe, Ted
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I do not think four injector fuel injection can be done for anywhere near $300. Even if you were to grab a used F.I. system from a scrapped bike, it is doubtful the control algorithms would be 'close enough' to correct to work right, and even that would cost more than $300.
But is certainly is an interesting project if you do pursue it. Just as an example, this is a source of both the hardware and software, as well as all the information you need to set up a system should you decide to give it a try: http://megasquirt.info/ (http://megasquirt.info/)
Brian
I am just thinking out loud and as someone that has some experience I hope you read this and have an opinion.
Seems to me that each vehicle whether motorcycle or automobile has a look up table for setting the fuel injector pulse width based on a number of input variables mainly air flow.
Many of those look up table are available for download for free. But the problem is that they are for a specific vehicle and are not optimized for you vehicle, temperature, altitude and gasoline quality. So to use one of those tables would require you to modify it based on your conditions and which injector you are using and any other parameters that are pecular to your bike.. And It would vary based on the fuel you were using and whether you are at sea level or in the mountains.
So what I am getting at is this, why not use a powerful enough processor that you don't need to use a look up table but calculate the pulse width based on input parameters in real time. You could input your altitude, engine size, injector size and fuel type and have processor calculate the tables for you. If you are coming down from the mountains the air density could be calculated. If you change fuel you could flip a switch to tell the computer you are using ethanol . I think there are 32 bit processors with enough processing speed to do all this on the fly.
I mean, where did the look up tables come from in the first place...? They were calculated from a number of input parameters . So why not use the same formulas and do the same calculations but in real time?
Any thoughts?
Thank you for the information. I have already considered megasquirt and had come to the conclusion although it is a great product I simply cant affort the baseline cost of $1000 just to get started. And the whole Idea is to learn and experiment.
The jist of my question was for an opinion on whether or not a more powerful computer could do all the calculation to generate the correct fuel/air ration "on the fly" rather that using a lookup table and then trimming based on current conditions.
I am going through a "big" remake of the plenum. The first one was problematic when it came to attaching the fuel rail. I just couldn't find a reliable clamp that was hardy enough to stay put under the shake test.
So I started over with a recycled fuel rail off a 600 CC Honda CBR . it is much more solid and the injectors can be swapped out to a number of injectors that share the same footprint. The injectors are no longer spraying directly into the feeder tubs but rather they are spraying into the plenum just over the feeder tubes.
This is going to set me back about a week.
So, the first thing to do is to figure out how much fuel one cylinder of your engine can possibly ever use, under any circumstances and then get a fuel injector that will deliver that amount of fuel if open 85% of the time.
Brian. You 2 are way above me on the programming. I won't even try to understand.
I do understand what your getting to with the injector sizing.
But I have 1 question. (Relating this to 1 cylinder)
When you say if open 85% of the time are you meaning 85% of 1 {360*} rotation,
or 85% of 1 complete cycle {720*} ??
Ride safe, Ted
That is exactly what I am doing. I do not pretend to know everything I need to know starting out. But I intend to finish and when I am done I will know everything I need to know to repeat it on my other bikes. I know it is a challenge and it gets me excited knowing I am doing something that I have never done before and learn a lot in the process. I have bee all over megasquirt's manual and I have read every scrap of information I can find on the internet. I am not getting any smarter but I am beginning to get the big picture forming in my head.
Just tuning an already packaged solution that is correctly designed, such as retrofitting the controller on an existing F.I. system, is a challenge. Building one that works reasonably well, at least as well as good carburation, using self- chosen parts, would take some time and effort to be sure.
Brian
<snip>
I have not yet decided to use Alpha-N or speed density. I am still reading reviews on the different method. I could settle on a hybrid system .....I am not close to that problem yet. I still need to get the manifold, injectors and fuel plumbing done before I begin the electronics. By then I will have a pretty good picture of the the programming that needs done.
That is exactly my intent long term. This project is to prove out the electronics and the programming. I am doing it on this V4 Magna because it is a spare bike I use for experiments.
I know you did not ask but I will offer that the best way to proceed with retrofitting a motorcycle, IMO, would be to get throttle bodies and fuel injectors from an existing design with a similar cylinder size as what you have and adapt it. That way the T.B. and fuel injectors are sized appropriately, located appropriately and have the great advantage of being known to work on a similar application. Then you could concentrate on the code and 'tweaking' of the system to get it to work on your own motorcycles. Just a thought.
Brian
Hi Brian. Decided to add a note here.
As I said, I can't touch ya'll on the programming, but can follow/offer thoughts with the build etc.
Interesting discussion...!!
One thing I want to bring us is the sizing of the injectors. You talked about the importance of them not being be too big and got into the pules widths.
But I don't think you went in the basic; why that is so important...
I think the reason for that is; too large of injector isn't precise when small amounts of fuel are required.
{For most riders, that is probably over 90% of the time)..
Bottom line, he'll need injectors that are capable of supplying enough fuel at WOT/etc, but it is essential to "not" use injectors with too much capability. Particularly when spraying into a combined Plenum.
Right??? :o
I'm guessing the size of his Throttle Body is of similar importance?
PS: I tried to PM or Email you several times with no luck. Can you contact me..?
Gpineau; Keep up the good work. I'd love to see you make this workable!!
I'm still concerned your assembly methods might not hold up for a prototype.
"But" I also understand why your building the "proto" in this manner.
Fingers crossed that you can figure it all out!! :thumbs:
Ride safe, Ted
Yepp, starting to look like it's possible....
I can't imagine how many measurement's were done to determine the fit.
Keep tinkering, we're watching...
Ride safe, Ted
PS: BDF, I sent you an Email. Did it reach you?
Set the regulator at 38 psi, cleared the air and now all 4 injectors are delivering 162 cc/min. So that works out that the needed 123 cc/minute can be supplied at 77.9% duty cycle.
I gotta ask .... what do you do in real life? I find this work you're doing fascinating. :thumbs:
I can feel your frustration..
Keep tinkering your getting there. :thumbs:
Are you planning to use an ECU from another bike to control the injectors etc?
If no, what do you intend to use?
Ride safe, Ted
B.D.F. Thanks for the info about back flushing. What sort of solvent do you use. I use Berrymans B12 cleaner for just about everything.
You would be better off to use silver solder. Brazing will likely crack with the vibrations.Ok, I'll try that. I should be able to solder it myself. Waiting on UPS to deliver the 1.5" steel pipe.
you may want to pressure test the plenum to make sure that your solder joints are sealed properly. Ü
So according to you there is no policing of rude arrogant people who think they are the elite on this forum and can disparage, ridicule and publicly shame other members.
Locking per the OP's request...
However, members need to know that if you post something it will be commented on, possibly laughed at, or made fun of. It's what we do. If you don't want that to happen, please don't post.
So according to you there is no policing of rude arrogant people who think they are the elite on this forum and can disparage, ridicule and publicly shame other members.Seems like if you request that a thread be locked because you can't deal with the responses to your posts, that you might want to just hush about that thread. I guess I'm just not smart enough to understand why one would then continue the pain inducing conversation in another thread......unless they think they are the only one that should be talking and everyone else should just listen. I'm a 50/50 guy. If I have to listen to you, then you get to listen to me. One can learn a lot here if they listen more than they talk and most of all......check one's feelings at the door. So many people running around these days with hurt feelings. Mercy! Good luck.....I'm thinking you'll need it.
I have a lot to contribute but if there is no one to moderate abusive comments here then I will not post here again.
For those that were following this thread, you can contact me via PM and follow my progress on shutterfly.
https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/125
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and the comments.
And let's all thank the MAN OF BLUES for helping me see the light. It’s been fun…NOT!
thank you for your comments, as I am refraining from any commentary relating to the OP's technical prowess, or projects from this point forward. I do feel however, it's necessary to make a point that making posts here is a free exchange, exchange being the operative word, and as such, you open the door from the first key you hit typing the post. If you don't want someone sharing, and saying something to prevent an otherwise costly and problematic experience on your part, well, as Jim said nicely, just don't make the post.
This forum has existed for decades, and the knowledge sharing (accepted or not) has been the staple of intent, without the input of those that have done silly things, and tell others not to repeat their mistakes out of kindness, there wouldn't be much sense in repeating things like oil and tire threads.. we all learn from mistakes, hopefully. When someone doesn't take what is given ( like correct part numbers, methods, and research given for free.. ) and want's to shut 'er down, pout, and whine, well... not much can be said.
I've asked the moderator to refrain from locking a post, just because the O/P gets a bug in his craw, as it's simply a waste of time for all those wanting to learn, (or learn how not to do something).. and we will see what becomes of it.
so, wasting months of time, and many pages of forum space, because of a a perceived feeling on a response that was given really degrades the experience.
dragging this all over here, served no purpose either,
share the information or choose not to.
don't waste peoples time tho, it's really rude. Much more rude than any comment I have made. Just because a thread is locked, doesn't make what was posted dissapear... and i'll add, once locked, it can't be modified to remove content... ;)
Congrats on all the work coming to fruition. Do you have a realtime O2 sensor in the exhaust to measure the fuel air ratio?
Rich, I concur with your assessment of location of the sensor. I located the O2 sensor in the collector of the catless zx header I installed on my '08. I think the stock headers have a boss at about the curve of the downtube.
Got my wide band sensor and controller. Tuning will proceed faster now. ]
Running as a closed loop system?