Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Tree on June 18, 2017, 07:41:22 PM
-
A beautiful day had dawned. Then I attempted to start my bike. That was Friday morning. 2 days later and I'm still in the driveway watching the weekend disappear.
So, if any of the following makes any sense maybe someone out there can help me with the next step. My next step is loading it on a flatbed and taking it to the local stealer.
I had rode it home from work 5 hours earlier. Everything was OK.
No response to pushing the key and releasing it. Then releasing it quickly (that internal spring). During all of these steps: No message on the screen. No cluster lights. No motion from the speedo or tach. No noise from the fuel pump.
I replaced the battery. All connections were and are tight.
I replaced the batteries in both key fobs.
I checked all of the fuses beneath the seat with an ohmmeter.
I broke, inspected, and re-connected the KIPASS connectors in the front/left.
I removed the mechanical key from the fob and placed it next to the raised tit in front of the key, pushed in and held they key for several seconds.
I no longer see the flashing red light in the instrument cluster, left side. I had always noticed that light when the bike was parked. That means something but I don't know what. It's like my bike got hit by an EMP.
-
You said you checked the fuses under the seat, did you check the 30A main fuse, near the battery compartment? You need to disconnect the main fuse connector from the starter relay to get at the fuse. I have no idea if this is the issue, but I would check it, to make sure, if you have not done so yet.
-
You'll have to remove the battery to get to that 30A fuse, and the rubber that covers the plug and socket is a bastard to get back on. I had the same issue with the bike not starting a week ago. I also had no warning, and rode the bike the day before.
-
You said you checked the fuses under the seat, did you check the 30A main fuse, near the battery compartment? You need to disconnect the main fuse connector from the starter relay to get at the fuse. I have no idea if this is the issue, but I would check it, to make sure, if you have not done so yet.
You'll have to remove the battery to get to that 30A fuse, and the rubber that covers the plug and socket is a bastard to get back on. I had the same issue with the bike not starting a week ago. I also had no warning, and rode the bike the day before.
I will look in the morning. I appreciate the suggestions. What a PITA this bike has turned into.
AND THE KICKER = I just finished paying off the ^#$)@# loan last week. FML, seriously.
-
Did you try using a fob in passive mode? If not, try that next as it uses a different part of the fob entirely.
After that, as others have said, check the main fuse. You can also use a VOM to check that there is voltage at any / all of the fuses when the bike is off (resting).
Otherwise, it could be the dreaded sticking KiPass activation switch; I know you unplugged and then re-plugged the connector on the top / left, and that should work but it has to be done fairly quickly and so you could try that again.
Brian
A beautiful day had dawned. Then I attempted to start my bike. That was Friday morning. 2 days later and I'm still in the driveway watching the weekend disappear.
So, if any of the following makes any sense maybe someone out there can help me with the next step. My next step is loading it on a flatbed and taking it to the local stealer.
I had rode it home from work 5 hours earlier. Everything was OK.
No response to pushing the key and releasing it. Then releasing it quickly (that internal spring). During all of these steps: No message on the screen. No cluster lights. No motion from the speedo or tach. No noise from the fuel pump.
I replaced the battery. All connections were and are tight.
I replaced the batteries in both key fobs.
I checked all of the fuses beneath the seat with an ohmmeter.
I broke, inspected, and re-connected the KIPASS connectors in the front/left.
I removed the mechanical key from the fob and placed it next to the raised tit in front of the key, pushed in and held they key for several seconds.
I no longer see the flashing red light in the instrument cluster, left side. I had always noticed that light when the bike was parked. That means something but I don't know what. It's like my bike got hit by an EMP.
-
Did you try using a fob in passive mode? If not, try that next as it uses a different part of the fob entirely.
After that, as others have said, check the main fuse. You can also use a VOM to check that there is voltage at any / all of the fuses when the bike is off (resting).
Otherwise, it could be the dreaded sticking KiPass activation switch; I know you unplugged and then re-plugged the connector on the top / left, and that should work but it has to be done fairly quickly and so you could try that again.
Brian
I thought that is what I had done when I pulled out the key and placed the fob against the SLU. Is passive mode something else?
-
I thought that is what I had done when I pulled out the key and placed the fob against the SLU. Is passive mode something else?
That was passive mode.
-
Yep, that is passive mode.
OK, you are down to two choices I believe: 1) stuck activation switch or 2) main power failure. The power failure could be the main fuse, although I cannot think of why one would open under any kind of normal use, or it could be a main power [power] cable or ground cable anywhere between the battery and the 'spider' of the bike's wiring. I know you said you checked the battery and ground connections right near the battery but there are other connections as well, such as the starter solenoid and of course, chassis grounds.
Or maybe another choice.... 3) you have lost power to the ignition switch assembly. Perhaps a frayed wire that finally parted, perhaps a connector or connector terminal that separated; if a single wire pulled out from a terminal, it would not be very noticeable. Japanese connectors lock and seal quite well so I doubt an entire connector 'slipped' open unless it was not properly closed and latched in the first place and again, finally worked its way open enough to break the connection.
Again, at this point, a VOM used to check for incoming power from the battery positive to all the fuse blocks (only check one fuse per block) is what I would do at this point. Or you could do it the more manual way, pull the battery and check the main fuse and starter solenoid wiring, directly behind the battery.
Best of luck,
Brian
I thought that is what I had done when I pulled out the key and placed the fob against the SLU. Is passive mode something else?
-
Last September I ran into the problem with the sticky microswitch/ignition switch assembly where the bike wouldn't start. I read about the various theories why the microswitch wasn't functioning properly and even watched some entertaining U-Boob vids about it. I didn't want to get into the habit of whacking the ignition switch whenever it got stuck so I just cut the 2 wires going to it and added a toggle switch. No problems with starting the bike since then - until now.
What's bugging me is that red light on the console that use to flash and no longer does. I haven't memorized the repair manual but I have looked for some sort of description as to what that light is signaling, and I haven't found anything yet.
I haven't been able to check the 30A fuse yet but I will this morning after I get back from work.
-
What's bugging me is that red light on the console that use to flash and no longer does.
It will only flash for 12 hours or something, then turn off and stay off.
I haven't memorized the repair manual but I have looked for some sort of description as to what that light is signaling, and I haven't found anything yet.
It doesn't signal anything (with the power off), it is essentially just a fake alarm system light to frighten away would-be do-badders.
-
It will only flash for 12 hours or something, then turn off and stay off.
It doesn't signal anything (with the power off), it is essentially just a fake alarm system light to frighten away would-be do-badders.
This helps. I was hoping it was some sort of alarm annunciator - "Armed and Ready" (I know there is no anti-theft device but it could be a deterrent). The way it helps is that it shows that there is a definite power distribution issue that I still need to figure out. I need that light to start flashing again. This is just plain weird.
-
Yes that light flashes for 24 hours. If it flashed until sat sometime that means your bike has some power. If you can cycle the bike power it will flash for another 24 hours. I would highly suspect the switch in the ignition. Brian's solution hopefully will get you going.
As far as passive mode in the fob. I may be wrong but don't you have to remove the battery in the fob to make it work that way (unless you are using the actual passive fob)
Good luck getting it started
-
Yes that light flashes for 24 hours.
Ha- I originally typed "24" then changed it to "12" since I couldn't remember. Now I looked it up in the manual, yep, 24. I could swear I have seen it stop blinking much sooner than 24 before. Hmm.
And as a bonus tip- you can stop it from doing the "off blinking" thing by pushing and holding the upper and lower dash buttons at the same time for 2 seconds within 20 seconds of turning off the ignition. Why one would want to do this, I have no idea!
-
What a week! I finally got 5 minutes to put my hands on the bike and that's all it took to find an apparent cause. The 30A fuse in the starter relay was blown. I say an "apparent cause" since I can't imagine a beefy-ass 30A fuse opening with out something bad going on downstream. So I will replace it and put everything back together and pray to the Asphalt God that it doesn't blow again. Wish me luck?
I did notice that the initial replies to this thread pointed right at the fuse. Thanks to everyone who chimed in. I appreciate it.
-
That fuse blew right away. Got all sparky when I went to attach the ground cable. This would be fun if it didn't suck. >:(
-
Now this is going to sound like some kind of joke but.... you are lucky you have a 'hard' short (Easy Boys!). What that means is that you have a short that is continuous rather than intermittent; that will make it one million time easier to find the problem than a short that 'comes and goes'.
You can pick up an automotive breaker so you can keep breaking the breaker while you search for the short, or pick up a box of fuses- either way, you <may> have to go through a bunch of iterations to find the problem. Still, this is really a benefit to you in diagnostics.
I would suggest removing the starter cable and then replacing the main fuse (or insert a breaker). If it does NOT open, you have isolated your problem to either the starter or something on the power side of the starter circuit. If it does open the fuse or breaker, start disconnecting the fuse boxes under the seat, or pull all the fuses in one box at a time, then try a new fuse (or reset the breaker). Keep going until it either will not open an fuse, and that means you have located the problem area, or it it continues, you will have to trace the power feeders to each fuse box for chafing nad where they might be shorting to ground. Again, in all seriousness, you have the benifit of a hard, certain short, which will show you exactly what the problem is if you keep looking. It sounds worse than it is; there are just not that many circuits on a C-14 and you will find it if you keep looking.
Best of luck but I believe you will find the problem. Then fix the problem, then ride the bike with the certainty that you HAVE found and ELIMINATED the problem. It is far worse when an electrical problem comes and goes for no obvious reason and you think you fixed it 29 times only to find you did not..... when a long way from home :-(
Brian
That fuse blew right away. Got all sparky when I went to attach the ground cable. This would be fun if it didn't suck. >:(
-
Hot wire a 12 volt lamp into the fuseholder sockets. It should go out when you've located the fault.
-
Yep, a low- wattage, 12 volt lamp will work also and will not 'blow' like a fuse. Good idea. No, great idea. :chugbeer:
To expand on how to do this if I may: plug lamp in where main fuse goes, lamp will light. Tinker around (technical term for disconnecting circuits, one at a time) with electrical system; when light goes out, you have the circuit that is causing your problem.
Brian
Hot wire a 12 volt lamp into the fuseholder sockets. It should go out when you've located the fault.
-
Yeah, but if the current is enough to blow a 30amp fuse immediately, what's it going to do to the bulb?
-
use two bulbs
-
Yeah, but if the current is enough to blow a 30amp fuse immediately, what's it going to do to the bulb?
Doesn't work quite that way. The light has its own resistance and will pull only the number of amps it needs to operate. The bulb will just light as long as there is power. Now, if you tried to feed it more than 12V, it would get brighter and brighter and eventually blow... but the voltage is set by the battery, around 12V.
-
use two bulbs
I like the way you think!
-
Frustration about not having the time to tend to this has been my enemy. Totally threw me off. OK, some deep breaths and some time to think leads me to the next step(s). Loads that are supplied by this circuit include the SLU, Starter Motor, Regulator / Rectifier, and fuse boxes 2 & 3. Interconnecting Wiring (ICW) is always on the list. The Starter Motor isn't fused here so I don't suspect it.
I'll take an Ohmmeter to this later tonight.
-
Light it. Or I could have said 'turn it on' but that would have required an 'Easy Boys!' so I did not write it that way. Saves time.....
How much current is 'available' in a circuit makes no difference because it is the voltage that 'drives' (literally) the current. For example, all around your house you have many different lamps and light bulbs that are all different wattages but they all have at least 15 amp circuit breakers. A 100 watt bulb 'draws' or uses less than 1 amp of current (voltage X current = wattage..... close enough for our purposes) and yet you can put it on a 15 amp, 20 amp or even 100 amp breaker and it will not allow any more current (amps) to flow than the voltage 'driving' that current, all of which is 115 volts at your house. Well, at least it was before you bought that ape hangar, no idea what it might be now..... :rotflmao:
The reason the fuse is opening (again, I could say blowing but.....) is because there is more than 30 amps of current flowing in that circuit, and through the fuse. Take out the fuse and replace it with an incandescent lamp and current will flow through that, which will then 'light up'. Makes it very easy to see when you find the problem; take fuses out of individual circuits and if one of them is the problem, the instant you remove the fuse, the light will go out (no more current flowing to light the bulb). It really is a great way to diagnose the problem in this case and I can say that 'cause it was not my idea. ;)
Brian
Yeah, but if the current is enough to blow a 30amp fuse immediately, what's it going to do to the bulb?
-
Light it. Or I could have said 'turn it on' but that would have required an 'Easy Boys!' so I did not write it that way. Saves time.....
The reason the fuse is opening (again, I could say blowing but.....) is because there is more than 30 amps of current flowing in that circuit, and through the fuse. Take out the fuse and replace it with an incandescent lamp and current will flow through that, which will then 'light up'. Makes it very easy to see when you find the problem; take fuses out of individual circuits and if one of them is the problem, the instant you remove the fuse, the light will go out (no more current flowing to light the bulb). It really is a great way to diagnose the problem in this case and I can say that 'cause it was not my idea. ;)
Brian
I've used lights before and they provide an excellent visual indicator. What I use more often is an ohmmeter which sets off a noise maker. I used it a lot when commissioning installations for Boiler Controls. The Make-Break-Make-Break is better for me when I can hear it. That being said, and, if I can, I prefer troubleshooting electrical stuff with energy applied which makes using a light so appealing. So I will give that a try. Sometimes the circuit has to be dead for safety reasons or there is a risk of damaging other components in the process - hence using the ohmmeter or Meggar. Thanks Brian.
-
You are right on track! Given that there are only four paths, you should be able to isolate the first leg very quickly.
Just a guess but I would suspect the voltage regulator right off, though that is of no consequence because it will be quick to check them all and find out which one is really the culprit.
As I said before, you are lucky this is a 'hard' short (Boys!) because intermittent electrical shorts and opens are often quite challenging to find.
Brian
Frustration about not having the time to tend to this has been my enemy. Totally threw me off. OK, some deep breaths and some time to think leads me to the next step(s). Loads that are supplied by this circuit include the SLU, Starter Motor, Regulator / Rectifier, and fuse boxes 2 & 3. Interconnecting Wiring (ICW) is always on the list. The Starter Motor isn't fused here so I don't suspect it.
I'll take an Ohmmeter to this later tonight.
-
Yes, an audio device will work as well but <may> get annoying listening to the buzzer depending on how long it takes you to find the problem. A light or OHM meter buzzer will remain on continuously until you find and open whatever is causing the short. That is why I think the light is the better, easier on you, way to go. But both will work equally well of course.
As for the thanks, not my idea- it was Tweeter55 who threw that one in. Thank him. And a fantastic idea it is too I think, so maybe send him some money, or at least an electronic kiss on the cheek. ;) :D
Brian
I've used lights before and they provide an excellent visual indicator. What I use more often is an ohmmeter which sets off a noise maker. I used it a lot when commissioning installations for Boiler Controls. The Make-Break-Make-Break is better for me when I can hear it. What I didn't even consider was "replacing the fuse" with the meter/light. What a concept! Thanks Brian.
-
Yes, an audio device will work as well but <may> get annoying listening to the buzzer depending on how long it takes you to find the problem. A light or OHM meter buzzer will remain on continuously until you find and open whatever is causing the short. That is why I think the light is the better, easier on you, way to go. But both will work equally well of course.
As for the thanks, not my idea- it was Tweeter55 who threw that one in. Thank him. And a fantastic idea it is too I think, so maybe send him some money, or at least an I hope electronic kiss on the cheek. ;) :D
Brian
I hope Tweeter55 doesn't mind that I didn't mention his suggestion. No slight intended, just an oversight.
-
I think you did mention his suggestion and complimented it, just made a small mistake and put it in the proverbial 'wrong mailbox' by using my name instead of his. It is tough to keep up with so many forum 'handles' and what names they go with, especially when the same people often use different forum names on different forums. I cannot speak for the person but I cannot imagine he would be cranky over that.
And you did a nice thing in trying to smooth out any feathers that may have been ruffled. If all of us did that- trying to be pleasant, respectful and corny though it is 'act like gentlemen and gentlewomen', the world would be a better place. It sounds like a joke but a LOT of the really bad events we read about or see in the news start out as nothing more than bad manners.....
OK, now that all is well and serene on the ZGGTR forum, GET OUT THERE and FIND THE PROBLEM...... the rest of us are waiting!!!
;) ;D
Brian
I hope Tweeter55 doesn't mind that I didn't mention his suggestion. No slight intended, just an oversight.
-
As for the thanks, not my idea- it was Tweeter55 who threw that one in. Thank him. And a fantastic idea it is too I think, so maybe send him some money, or at least an electronic kiss on the cheek. ;) :D
Brian
They don't call me 'sparky' for nothing. Glad to be of some assistance. I am waiting with baited breath to hear read what the problem is was.
-
I took a resistance reading on the White wire, the one in the connector on the starter relay. It was a short to the chassis. I disconnected the Regulator / Rectifier (RR), after removing the rear wheel to get a better grip on the damn thing. Shitloads of road grit poured out of both connectors. I re-read the resistance of the white wire and saw Megohms. That was almost enough to say that the RR was the culprit but I wanted to do a couple more things. I left the RR disconnected and restored the starter relay and battery. The instrument cluster responded and the Speedo and Tach needles cycled when I connected the ground lead. I liked that. I took the battery out again and noted the 30A fuse was still good. I liked that more. I then re-connected the RR and applied power . . . the 30A fuse blew. I replaced the fuse and disconnected the RR and then re-applied power once more. The instrument cluster responded and the fuse was good when I removed the battery to check it.
I did take resistance readings of the RR per the tech manual. I didn't find anything overtly wrong with the readings but they weren't consistent. The resistance ranges in the tech manual seemed arbitrary at best.
I will replace the RR and be back on 2 wheels soon. I like that part the best.
I haven't started to look around the interweb for a new RR yet. If anyone knows of a place that has them let me know.
-
Glad you managed to sort it out. Well done Bud!! :chugbeer: :chugbeer:
-
$270 at Bike Bandit. Are there better deals out there?
-
google the part number...see if it comes up for any other apps
-
$197 at Partzilla
-
New
PartShark - 270
Dealercostparts - 270
cyclepartsoutlet - 251
2wheelpros - 260
Used
ebay - 51-75-85
I'm leaning for getting a used one from somewhere. It seems that I can replace it up to 5 times until I get one that will last another 40K miles.
-
$197 at Partzilla
That looks good too. The part number search has shown a ton of variations. Even with the "-0744" I am looking at regulators for lawn mowers. WTF?
-
is it a kawasaki mower? ;D
try amazon... https://www.amazon.com/REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-21066-0008-21066-0714-21066-0744/dp/B017SZUIQA (https://www.amazon.com/REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-21066-0008-21066-0714-21066-0744/dp/B017SZUIQA)
-
I've heard of the RR having issues in the UK due to corrosion. How did the bottom of it look? Also, I did make a bet with myself that it might be the culprit. Easy to say now, of course.
-
what did the winner get?
-
Beer, of course! :chugbeer:
-
I've heard of the RR having issues in the UK due to corrosion. How did the bottom of it look? Also, I did make a bet with myself that it might be the culprit. Easy to say now, of course.
It doesn't look too bad. Some caked-on dirt on the bottom plate. No real external indication that it was faulty.
-
what did the winner get?
Add to the beer my thanks. I will tie this thread up after I get the new one and I am, once again, passing CHP while I ride to work. (One of the benefits of splitting the lanes). :D
-
Ordered a new one from Amazon. $121 delivered with 2 day shipping.
-
But wait! There's more! Installed the new voltage regulator. Attached the battery and saw/heard what I expected for a normal power up. I started the bike. It started right up. Hell yes and congrats all around.
I put everything back together. Started it once more while it was on the center stand. Put it down on the kick stand and tried to start it one more time before taking it out on the road - NOTHING. Crap. Pretty sure the 30A fuse will be blown when I look at it.
It's late and I don't have any more patience to F with it tonight.
-
Put it down on the kick stand and tried to start it one more time before taking it out on the road - NOTHING. Crap. Pretty sure the 30A fuse will be blown when I look at it.
It's late and I don't have any more patience to F with it tonight.
You probably had it in gear with that side stand down and the safety lockout prevented you from starting it, maybe?
-
You probably had it in gear with that side stand down and the safety lockout prevented you from starting it, maybe?
I briefly thought of that but there was absolutely no electronic activity at all after I put it on the kick stand. During the successful starts after replacing the regulator I saw that flashing red light again, not any more. It was in neutral the entire time.
I just need some time to dig in again. Maybe this weekend.
I don't want to miss the rally in Hollister this weekend but it don't look good. Total Bummer.
-
And I'm a complete idiot. 100% certified.
The term "Shot myself in the foot" applies here. 2 weeks ago I had replaced the bypass switch with one that had a longer handle (there's a thread on this forum somewhere "KIPASS Issue alive and well", it's a great read). The longer handle made it easier to operate with gloves on. The switch is on the LS plastic next to the tank/windshield/cluster area. What I did not notice was the new switch was deeper. So, I basically installed a short from one terminal to the rail for the windshield. The short didn't present right away so I thought nothing of it when I started blowing fuses days later. I guess the plastic finally moved into the right place when I parked the bike for the night and shorted when I went to start it later.
What I realize now was the short went away with the switch in the OFF position. I took resistance readings with it in OFF. The only reason I found it when I did was the fact that I noticed the arc when operating the switch this time.
- No, I did not have any e-tape on the switch. That would have been way too smart for this guy. I may have given it some thought but all I saw was plastic in there.
- Yes, I purchased and installed a new voltage regulator that I did not need.
- Yes, this event lasted close to 2 weeks.
And, finally... YES, I AM GOING TO THE BIKE RALLY IN HOLLISTER THIS WEEKEND!!!
To all of you that offered their advice and good wishes in this thread I give you thanks. I hope this electrical troubleshooting debacle has inspired anyone who reads this to ask a simple question prior to fixing an electrical issue "What was the last thing I had my hands on that had something to do with electrical?"
Ride safe everyone.
Tree - OUT
-
Well, good on you for 'fessin' up. We all step in it but few admit to it so my thanks for owning your mishap and maybe saving someone else from the same thing. But even better, good on you for 'fessing up because it might allow a few more folks to think that they too may have made a mistake (the bane of all humans) and look at the last work he / she did for the solution.
Having a big ego is fine and all but listening, thinking of the possibilities and really looking for the cause instead of insisting that "I" did not do anything wrong costs a lot of time an effort.
I have done it myself of course but sometimes it is hard to really think I myself was the root cause. Best to get beyond that and move toward fixing the actual problem, as you did.
Your punishment (two weeks of troubleshooting and no riding ) was beyond ample. IMO, you acquitted yourself well by telling what really happened. Kudos to you and enjoy that rally!
Brian
And I'm a complete idiot. 100% certified.
<snip>
To all of you that offered their advice and good wishes in this thread I give you thanks. I hope this electrical troubleshooting debacle has inspired anyone who reads this to ask a simple question prior to fixing an electrical issue "What was the last thing I had my hands on that had something to do with electrical?"
Ride safe everyone.
Tree - OUT
-
Thanks Brian. Now, if I could only get that windshield to work... Never mind. I've had enough for now. :D