Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Eupher on September 27, 2016, 03:33:02 PM
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Well, I poked around here and there and found lots of information about this particular problem, caused by the moisture in the mandated ethanol gas that's in my area.
There's a pretty entertaining thread here, under the title "Stove Pipe Knob Removal" or somesuch.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=110.msg236735#msg236735 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=110.msg236735#msg236735)
And there are several Youtube videos that address the issue, and other forums as well.
The moisture in the ethanol apparently causes a reaction in the aluminum that's part of the latch assembly. Over time, a whitish powder appears and it eventually seizes the tabs to the point they won't move. If you need gas and you can't open your gas cap, well, there is a big problem.
I started having trouble with my C14 yesterday when I went to gas up. Will be heading to AutoZone and picking up some lock graphite and maybe some Liquid Wrench.
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http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20069.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20069.0)
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Its not the key lock....
Its the internal latching bars and mechanism.. pull the thing off, disassemble it, scrub it well with scotchbrite pads, and grease every nternal latch part with lithium grease...
Ive'm currently looking for a local metal plater thru my vast network of engineering contacts, to offer up an affordable option for some plating that is better than that damned zinc chromate conversion, and jnplated aluminum bars.. I'll post up when I get a good source for plating all the parts that matter.. untill then, scrub, and grease them..
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Its not the key lock....
Its the internal latching bars and mechanism.. pull the thing off, disassemble it, scrub it well with scotchbrite pads, and grease every nternal latch part with lithium grease...
Better yet (much better), grease the internal bits with aviation fuel lube. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php) is but one example. The small 5oz. tube can be handed down to the grand kids.
Rick
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http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20069.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20069.0)
Thanks, maxtog. I had remembered stumbling on this some months ago, but then thought it might've been on the COG forum as I couldn't find it here. Not sure why -- used the same key words as your thread title...
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Better yet (much better), grease the internal bits with aviation fuel lube. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php) is but one example. The small 5oz. tube can be handed down to the grand kids.
Rick
I had some Beoshield aircraft lube years ago that was awesome, used it on all the bikes I worked on back then to lube the gas latches, it held up surprisingly well, but its long been gone from my collection... it dried to a slick waxy coating, worked awesome on chains also, both m/c and my mountain bikes
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I replaced mine with a non locking cap. It seems to be working just fine for me.
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Better yet (much better), grease the internal bits with aviation fuel lube. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php) is but one example. The small 5oz. tube can be handed down to the grand kids.
Rick
Ordered a 5 oz. tube of this stuff. Kinda spendy at $12 plus shipping, but as I don't want to make lubing the gas cap a regular maintenance item necessarily, it should be worth it -- and thanks for the tip.
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Ordered a 5 oz. tube of this stuff. Kinda spendy at $12 plus shipping, but as I don't want to make lubing the gas cap a regular maintenance item necessarily, it should be worth it -- and thanks for the tip.
Use the coupon code (error404) at check out and get the 5oz tube for just a little over $12 shipped.
http://www.skygeek.com/united-ez-turn-fuelube-5-oz.html (http://www.skygeek.com/united-ez-turn-fuelube-5-oz.html)
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Get some grease from the auto parts store with Moly in it. It is cheap and has cured my sticking latch for over a year now. Dont put it in the key part, take apart the latch, remove the white corrosion and smear some moly grease on the parts that slide.
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Get some grease from the auto parts store with Moly in it. It is cheap and has cured my sticking latch for over a year now. Dont put it in the key part, take apart the latch, remove the white corrosion and smear some moly grease on the parts that slide.
Hi,
Bingo!
Moly PASTE....even better!!! 8)
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Prevention is the best medicine here. If at all possible, do NOT let the bike sit for any significant length of time with Ethanol-laced fuel in it.
See :
http://www.pure-gas.org/ (http://www.pure-gas.org/)
For sources near you!
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Its not the key lock....
Its the internal latching bars and mechanism.. pull the thing off, disassemble it, scrub it well with scotchbrite pads, and grease every nternal latch part with lithium grease...
Ive'm currently looking for a local metal plater thru my vast network of engineering contacts, to offer up an affordable option for some plating that is better than that damned zinc chromate conversion, and jnplated aluminum bars.. I'll post up when I get a good source for plating all the parts that matter.. untill then, scrub, and grease them..
MOB,
Plating small parts is really easy. You can buy kits or make you own. I'm for gold plating the thing although nickel plating is probably more practical and will work just as well.
https://www.amazon.com/Plug-Plate%C2%AE-Nickel-Electroplating-Kit/dp/B009XELF08 (https://www.amazon.com/Plug-Plate%C2%AE-Nickel-Electroplating-Kit/dp/B009XELF08)
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Prevention is the best medicine here. If at all possible, do NOT let the bike sit for any significant length of time with Ethanol-laced fuel in it. See :http://www.pure-gas.org/ (http://www.pure-gas.org/)For sources near you!
Unfortunately, ethanol-free gas is not available for many people... I would be one of them. Nothing for many hundreds of square miles, covering millions of people.
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https://www.amazon.com/Plug-Plate%C2%AE-Nickel-Electroplating-Kit/dp/B009XELF08 (https://www.amazon.com/Plug-Plate%C2%AE-Nickel-Electroplating-Kit/dp/B009XELF08)
"We do not recommend plating aluminum directly with our Plug N' Plate® kits." I think aluminum, which is what the gas tank cap is mostly made of, is difficult to plate with anything.
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Maybe anodizing.... http://www.caswellplating.com/anodizing-products/anodizing-kits.html (http://www.caswellplating.com/anodizing-products/anodizing-kits.html)
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Maybe anodizing.... http://www.caswellplating.com/anodizing-products/anodizing-kits.html (http://www.caswellplating.com/anodizing-products/anodizing-kits.html)
Perhaps.... at the low, low price of only $500!
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gee max...there's no such thing as a free lunch
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"We do not recommend plating aluminum directly with our Plug N' Plate® kits." I think aluminum, which is what the gas tank cap is mostly made of, is difficult to plate with anything.
I think the parts in question, the ones that corrode, are not aluminum but "pot-metal" which is cast zinc. I could be wrong because I've not checked it but if it is aluminum, then it could be easily anodized vs. plated.
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I think the parts in question, the ones that corrode, are not aluminum but "pot-metal" which is cast zinc. I could be wrong because I've not checked it but if it is aluminum, then it could be easily anodized vs. plated.
Hmm, I am not sure now. I thought it was aluminum based on the feel/weight/hardness/color and white corrosion- at least the parts of the latch that were the worst part of the problem http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20069.0;attach=24314;image (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20069.0;attach=24314;image)
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Speaking of non-ethanol fuel, get the app "Pure Gas" for your smart phone. It shows you where you can find it. :thumbs:
But yep, still lots of dead areas. I have to drive 25 miles for my closest source.
EDIT: Sorry JH, I failed to notice you already mentioned this. :-[
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Prevention is the best medicine here. If at all possible, do NOT let the bike sit for any significant length of time with Ethanol-laced fuel in it.
See :
http://www.pure-gas.org/ (http://www.pure-gas.org/)
For sources near you!
Thanks for this! The last time that I checked that site there were no sources of non ethanol gas in my area. Now I see that there is and just 5 miles away at a Farm Service station.
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Thanks for this! The last time that I checked that site there were no sources of non ethanol gas in my area. Now I see that there is and just 5 miles away at a Farm Service station.
The PureGas site is invaluable and they have an app also. But not all sources are listed. Some common places to find E0:
1) Marinas.
2) Airports, especially those that cater to local private plane owners.
3) Farming supply outfits like the Farm Bureau Coops.
4) Home improvement centers. While pricey many are now selling "TruFuel" and there is an oil-free/ethanol-free version:
http://trufuel50.com/product-info/4-cycle/ (http://trufuel50.com/product-info/4-cycle/)
I don't think I'd fill up with this stuff due to cost but it's a LOT cheaper than fuel system issues!
I used to have an annual ritual of figuring out which of my power equipment carbs needed to be rebuilt. But since I started using E0 fuel from my local Countrymark Coop, I've had no issues at all! It's about $0.25 more per gallon than E10 PREMIUM but you can buy a LOT of gas for the price of a carb rebuild kit!
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Hi,
I throw in some Techron every tank! (or every other!) :finger_fing11:
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I throw in some Techron every tank! (or every other!) :finger_fing11:
I don't think Techron will help with any issues that revolve around ethanol in gas (such as lost power, wasted money, corrosion, and water attraction). This is not to say Techron isn't good stuff- I like to run some through all my vehicles once or twice a year. It is designed to help keep injectors clean and reduce deposits. But I am also pretty sure it is not worth using dozens of times a year; all modern gas has useful additives for helping to reduce deposits and keep injectors clean (and despite massive marketing efforts, other than octane level, there is nothing "premium" about high octane gas- it doesn't clean better or have more or different additives, and for engines that don't need it, it REDUCES efficiency/power and wastes money).
I am not even sure how much ethanol is to blame for the big issues lots of us have with the gas cap latch mechanism being messed up constantly. Although I suspect it is a major player. Personally, I have no way to test it because there is no practical method for obtaining E0 here. I do keep hoping that will change one day, but I won't hold my breath....
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You could just make your own E0 from E10.
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And then there's this...
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOOc5kT39ec#)
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Darwin award 1st runnerup?
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That and messing around with gasoline..
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Removing alky is easy. Just add water.
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And then there's this...
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOOc5kT39ec#)
WTF? Gasoline is explosive? ???
Who knew? ::)
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Naw...you can put a match out in gasoline....if you can get past the vapors.
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I'm feeling a bout of the vapors coming on..
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Probably just a hot flash.
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I'm feeling a bout of the vapors coming on..
Who's gotta match?
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Yeesh...
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Unfortunately, ethanol-free gas is not available for many people... I would be one of them. Nothing for many hundreds of square miles, covering millions of people.
Just get your own 500 gal tank
I have road and off road diesel along with real gas out back
Boeshield T 9 is your friend
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[on-topic]
Can anybody report back how the aviation fuel lube works?
[off topic]
Unfortunately, ethanol-free gas is not available for many people... I would be one of them. ...
Any General Aviation airport, ask for 100LL (low lead). Bring your own metal jerry cans (don't ask). If they ask, tell 'em it's for a '49 tractor, as it has lead in it (duh).
With luck, they may also sell MOGAS. Which is automotive 'pump' gas, ~93 octane, lead and ETOH free.
In both cases, it can be expensive, the 100LL more so.
On another front, a company, let's call them "Swift Fuels", is testing a lead free substitute for 100LL. If not aware, most every piston airplane engine requires 100LL (or better), and it's NOT necessarilly because of the lead content. Vapor pressure, stable in storage, atomization, cold weather performance, compatibility with rubber bits and pieces, and a raft of other things. It's scarse as hen's teeth right now though.
Rick
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Ah, good old mogas! I haven't heard that mentioned since my good ole Army days in the motor pool. :salute:
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I don't think Techron will help with any issues that revolve around ethanol in gas (such as lost power, wasted money, corrosion, and water attraction). This is not to say Techron isn't good stuff- I like to run some through all my vehicles once or twice a year. It is designed to help keep injectors clean and reduce deposits. But I am also pretty sure it is not worth using dozens of times a year; all modern gas has useful additives for helping to reduce deposits and keep injectors clean (and despite massive marketing efforts, other than octane level, there is nothing "premium" about high octane gas- it doesn't clean better or have more or different additives, and for engines that don't need it, it REDUCES efficiency/power and wastes money).
I am not even sure how much ethanol is to blame for the big issues lots of us have with the gas cap latch mechanism being messed up constantly. Although I suspect it is a major player. Personally, I have no way to test it because there is no practical method for obtaining E0 here. I do keep hoping that will change one day, but I won't hold my breath....
Hi,
Well...everyone is welcome to their opinion and free to run their scooter anyway they please.....
You paid for it!
The other thing, I use Techron for, is to "try" to keep the fuel pump filter as clean as I can!
Am I?
I don't know, but we will see, if not, I did what I could!
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I did my filter this year and put 21k on the bike. I have another filter and am considering doing it again. If I was smart, I'd do the valves when I had the tank off.
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I'm feeling a bout of the vapors coming on..
Sorry Jim, I just couldn't help myself ....just for you sir :rotflmao:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLQeb5NGt3E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLQeb5NGt3E)
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;D
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I have used pure gas app for years. Kinds stopped as it became more and more unreliable. I reported stations that no longer carry unethynoled options and still no updates.
So my cover is starting to act weird. Harder to open and close. So the fix on this thread is to take off, disassemble, clean and lube the internals??? Any tips? Straight forward job? Thanks for any experience input.
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So my cover is starting to act weird. Harder to open and close. So the fix on this thread is to take off, disassemble, clean and lube the internals??? Any tips? Straight forward job? Thanks for any experience input.
I've done mine twice. Most recently a few weeks ago and I was much more thorough than the first time.
I opened the cap, removed two screws that hold the latching mechanism and pulled it off leaving the lock components attached. Be gentle. I covered the tank opening with a cloth just in case.
Disassembled the latch and worked on each piece for a LONG time with a Scotch Brite pad. Lubed with some brand of lock lubricant and tested. Felt some slight notchiness. Scotch Brited for a good bit longer. Reassembled and reinstalled. Hit the lock components with the same lube.
It feels a LOT better than it did. Don't know what's causing the corrosion on the pieces in question.
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Mine hasn't been a problem yet, it seems pretty clean on the inside. 98%+ of its 66,000+ miles on E10. Mine usually sits between trips and then gets a bunch of miles put on it all at once. I wonder if it's a local humidity thing and not the ethanol? I often think of Fort Worth's humidity as being too high in the summer until I go back to visit Chicago and am reminded of what real humidity is. :P I return to Texas to cool off. ::)
It does have a good coating of white on top where the key goes in. I put a bit of stabilizer in the tank between trips but I doubt that's why mine is so clean. I keep telling my self that if I ever need to take mine apart and clean and lube it that I'll do this (http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/gascapmod) to it. Hasn't been a problem yet so no.
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I did what was done in that pictorial with the exception of using a Scotch Brite instead of the flat file.
You'll know if/when you need to do it. My suggestion would be to do it as soon as you notice any notchiness rather than waiting. I spent about 10 minutes getting mine open at the gas station immediately before doing it last time. Was sure I was going to snap a key off.
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I did what was done in that pictorial with the exception of using a Scotch Brite instead of the flat file.
Just to be clear, that pictorial (assuming you're referring Fred Harmon's, the one I linked to.) is not about cleaning the gas cap, it's about modifying the latch mechanism so that you can close and lock the cap without the key in place. To do the shown modification with only Scotchbrite would take....?.... years?.
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Just to be clear, that pictorial (assuming you're referring Fred Harmon's, the one I linked to.) is not about cleaning the gas cap, it's about modifying the latch mechanism so that you can close and lock the cap without the key in place. To do the shown modification with only Scotchbrite would take....?.... years?.
That's what I get for skimming over it... ;)
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Maybe he has LOTS of time
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I have this problem fixed replacing the seal on the lock cylinder cove rand also adjusting the tension on the spring that hold the lid down
i used some of that double side tape used to glue moldings on vehicles, now it seals perfectly keeping the moisture away
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff316/gildaguz/Gas%20cap_zpsn53kk36j.jpg?t=1484707085)
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff316/gildaguz/Tape_zps1jqjlg2m.jpg?t=1484707069)
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Just checking back on this thread as I did a fairly thorough cleaning last time around and need to do it again pretty soon. It was fine up until a tank or two ago and it's now getting pretty rough. I've *tried* to get food-free fuel whenever I can and have multiple stations near the house with it. It's just when I'm on the road that it can be a problem.
Anyhow, it looks like it's been just shy of six months since I did it last. Never had another bike when this has been an issue.
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I took mine apart, scrubbed up the internal aluminum parts to get rid of that whitish deposit, used some of that aircraft lube (it plays well with gasoline, apparently), and it works fine. Squirted a few drops of 3-in-oil "Dry Lube" down the keyhole. BTW, this "Dry Lube" is not a graphite powder. It's a liquid, but apparently it dries, leaving a lubricating film on the key internals.
Took me about 10 minutes. It's cheap maintenance.
I remember breaking my key off in the lock with the '03 Honda 919 I had. Don't want to repeat that performance.... ::)
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Mine apparently is due AGAIN for re-doing. When I filled yesterday, I wasn't sure I would be able to get it open :(
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I replaced mine with a non locking cap. It seems to be working just fine for me.
That! I want to do just that and get rid of the need for a key. Where can I get one?
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That! I want to do just that and get rid of the need for a key. Where can I get one?
I may go that route in time, but that depends on how long the lube I just did lasts.
I have no idea how well this works. Or doesn't. YMMV.
https://www.amazon.com/Kawasaki-Release-Keyless-Billet-Petrol/dp/B0093CC9SW (https://www.amazon.com/Kawasaki-Release-Keyless-Billet-Petrol/dp/B0093CC9SW)
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I may go that route in time, but that depends on how long the lube I just did lasts.
I have no idea how well this works. Or doesn't. YMMV.
https://www.amazon.com/Kawasaki-Release-Keyless-Billet-Petrol/dp/B0093CC9SW (https://www.amazon.com/Kawasaki-Release-Keyless-Billet-Petrol/dp/B0093CC9SW)
I checked it out and ordered one. I never saw the need for a locking cap anyhow. Thanks for the link!
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Wow, that sounds like a KiPass failure on a bike that does not even have KiPass....
:-)
Brian
<snip>
I remember breaking my key off in the lock with the '03 Honda 919 I had. Don't want to repeat that performance.... ::)
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Wow, that sounds like a KiPass failure on a bike that does not even have KiPass....
:-)
Brian
KiPass may be evil, but the ethanol lobby is eviler. :P
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KiPass may be evil, but the ethanol lobby is eviler. :P
Agreed.
Just did the gas cap again, but this time I made everything all shiny with the wire wheel on a Dremel. Hope this lasts longer than six months. If not, I think I'll look into one of those aftermarket gas caps mentioned above.
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Just did the gas cap again, but this time I made everything all shiny with the wire wheel on a Dremel. Hope this lasts longer than six months.
Lasted about a year for me.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20069.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20069.0)
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I used graphite Lock Ease on the gas hole lock last year. After drying it created a coating that is still holding up this year, on the lock side anyways.
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I basically disassembled it, wire brushed to remove as much corrosion as I could with the Dremel, hit everything with lithium grease and reassembled. Hit the lock mechanism with a liquid lock lubricant. Last time around, I used a ScotchBrite on everything and lubed it the same way. Got a little over six months out of it. This time, it felt much more smooth when I was done. We'll see how long it lasts. For the record, I run non-ethanol fuel probably 80-90% of the time. Or at least what's labeled as such.
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Reasons why I don't want the original cap any more:
1. It has an integral failure method.
2. It requires a key.
3. It gets in the way when I fuel the tank.
So, I replaced it. Slingshot Racing. Silver and Black were out of stock with a 3-4 month advance.
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Reasons why I don't want the original cap any more:
1. It has an integral failure method.
2. It requires a key.
3. It gets in the way when I fuel the tank.
Reasons I don't want a replacement removable cap:
1. It doesn't require a key (which prevents tampering and gas theft, the former being more likely and dangerous)
2. It doesn't stay captive (I WANT it hinged so I don't have to figure out where to put it and don't risk scratching the paint)
3. Might not match
But who knows- if I get frustrated enough I might, anyway.
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Reasons I don't want a replacement removable cap:
1. It doesn't require a key (which prevents tampering and gas theft, the former being more likely and dangerous)
2. It doesn't stay captive (I WANT it hinged so I don't have to figure out where to put it and don't risk scratching the paint)
3. Might not match
But who knows- if I get frustrated enough I might, anyway.
All good points. I just got pissed off enough with the constant need to maintain the damn thing. The blue is starting to look better and better with each tank fill, sans key and gummy locking mechanism. The photo doesn't show it very clearly but the removable part does have an o-ring and it fits nicely in my pocket while fueling. :)
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Digging in my pocket during a fuel stop? No thanks!
Enjoying my keyless fuel cap? Yes indeed!