Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: DonB on December 05, 2011, 07:36:23 AM
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how many find that the Economy mode does anything? I don't have many miles yet on my 2012 but I can not see that it does anything
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I use it all the time. I find it'll give me about 5 more mpg on the instant mpg readout- for example, if it's off and I'm getting 40, and I turn it on, it will jump up to 45.
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I use it all the time. I find it'll give me about 5 more mpg on the instant mpg readout- for example, if it's off and I'm getting 40, and I turn it on, it will jump up to 45.
^^^^ that. Just because you don't notice a decrease in performance doesn't mean its not doing anything
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If you're speed is near ~80mph, you won't see any benefit.
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If you're speed is near ~80mph, you won't see any benefit.
But below 80 mph... ... ;D
I get about 4 extra mpg when staying under that. Read your manual as it gives you the parameters for when it does something and when it doesn't.
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But below 80 mph... ... ;D
I get about 4 extra mpg when staying under that. Read your manual as it gives you the parameters for when it does something and when it doesn't.
^^^that again
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I've noticed about 4 mpg improvement with the eco mode and can't tell any difference with performance. It is to the point that even in the twisties I leave it in eco. The only time I feel a difference is in idle when the bike is warming up ,the eco mode seems to pick up the idle speed.
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If I forget to turn it on for a trip, my avg. Mpg will go down.
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I get 4-5 mpg better mileage but I definitely feel a difference in power. Not a lot but it is there.
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No question it helps. As others have said, it's a 4-6mpg improvement. I regularly get 50 and over on the freeway. I cruise right around 80 on the freeway.
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Anybody gets over 60 MPG? ::)
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Anybody gets over 60 MPG? ::)
Down hills!
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Anybody gets over 60 MPG? ::)
I got 61mpg on a 130 mile stretch of super-slab, riding solo at the speed limit and with ECO on (as measured by the bike's computer). I am with most everyone else with about a 5mpg increase in ECO mode.
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Ninja 250?
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Anybody gets over 60 MPG? ::)
I've had several tanks at 56 or so.
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I've had several tanks at 56 or so.
WOW Jim,
Were you coasting down hills and accelerating very slowly to get this number?
I have never seen more than 43.5MPG (calculated, not by bike computer) and I've really tried at times. Steady throttle, slow cruising (below 65MPH) and short shifting has never worked on this bike. I've seen 50+ several times on my R1100RT, never on my K1100LT and only once or twice on my R100RS.
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I have no problem believing 55mpg+ is achievable in ECO mode. On a group ride/trip with friends on HD's & cruisers a few years ago, I got 52-55mpg on a couple of fill-ups on my '08. Of course, highway miles at 55-60mph, level ground, no power bursts.
A few days ago, I got 32mpg on a fill-up. Sub 45F temps, climbing, winter fuel and speed changes. Of course, a lot of it is the rider. Years ago, I had a friend who would consistently get 5-10mpg more that me when we rode together. Even when we switched bikes. :)
I'm sure ECO mode is a good thing, but some people are just easier on equipment.
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Of course, highway miles at 55-60mph, level ground, no power bursts.
But you gotta admit, THAT is not normal riding. :)
Mick
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Friend? FriendS (plural) ????? No way Clyde, we do not believe you. It didn't happen without pictures. And photos of Santa and / or the Easter Bunny do not count.
;D ;D ;D
Brian
I have no problem believing 55mpg+ is achievable in ECO mode. On a group ride/trip with friends on HD's & cruisers a few years ago, I got 52-55mpg on a couple of fill-ups on my '08. Of course, highway miles at 55-60mph, level ground, no power bursts.
A few days ago, I got 32mpg on a fill-up. Sub 45F temps, climbing, winter fuel and speed changes. Of course, a lot of it is the rider. Years ago, I had a friend would would consistently get 5-10mpg more that me when we rode together. Even when we switched bikes. :)
I'm sure ECO mode is a good thing, but some people are just easier on equipment.
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On a group ride/trip with friends on HD's & cruisers a few years ago, I got 52-55mpg on a couple of fill-ups on my '08.
That is quite believable... plus I don't know if there is any other way it WOULD be :)
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Ah, yes. The kinder and gentler example that you always offer, Brian. Still having trouble with that old passive-aggesive habit?
Agreed that it was was unusual for me, but for about half the riders in that group, it was their normal pace. :)
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Anybody gets over 60 MPG? ::)
I got the status to indicate 99mpg a couple times... As previously stated, it was coasting downhill and decelerating. If only I could ALWAYS ride downhill or decelerate... without ever slowing down, that is..
But the 5+/- is about what I see in ECO mode.
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Yeah, the better angels of my nature fer sure.... Things around here have been terrible, comedy- wise anyway. If the drought continues we are going to have to import some anti- C-14 folks just to stir things up a bit.
Brian
Ah, yes. The kinder and gentler example that you always offer, Brian. Still having trouble with that old passive-aggesive habit?
Agreed that it was was unusual for me, but for about half the riders in that group, it was their normal pace. :)
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WOW Jim,
Were you coasting down hills and accelerating very slowly to get this number?
I have never seen more than 43.5MPG (calculated, not by bike computer) and I've really tried at times. Steady throttle, slow cruising (below 65MPH) and short shifting has never worked on this bike. I've seen 50+ several times on my R1100RT, never on my K1100LT and only once or twice on my R100RS.
Mick, I have seen that number in mountains of Colorado where the down hill more than makes up for the uphill. HOWEVER, I have seen it more than once running a solid 80 on freeways. Mind you, it is very flat where I live. BTW, I'm talking about entire tankfuls, and several times. I regularly get 48-50 on a tankful. But yes, it drops pretty badly when I'm running it hard.
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I get 4-5 mpg better mileage but I definitely feel a difference in power. Not a lot but it is there.
Just curious where you believe you feel the power difference.
It automatically drops out of the ECO mapping if you apply more than 30% throttle. That's why I try to remember to engage it every time I ride. That way it's in ECO when it might matter, and doesn't do anything when I feel the urge for power.
Honestly, I can't think of a reason NOT to have it on. I just wish it would remember the setting when you turn the bike off.
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I got the status to indicate 99mpg a couple times.
I did too. And it was in my car. ;D
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I can also say that my mileage drops by about 2-3 mpg when I move the stock windshield to the fully up position. >:(
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I can also say that my mileage drops by about 2-3 mpg when I move the stock windshield to the fully up position. >:(
I think that wind direction and speed have also a profound influence on mileage.
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I always try to remember to turn the ECO mode on...I wish the factory default was on. It seems like I can always remember to turn it on when I leave my house, but there is only about a 20% chance that I will remember to switch it back on after re-fueling.
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I have an 09, so no eco mode... :(
Since I bought it new and even before/after full Muzzys duals and PCV setup my average mileage on my display has always read 32.1, at least I'm consistant... Guess I need to do some highway trips... :-\
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Yeah, the better angels of my nature fer sure.... Things around here have been terrible, comedy- wise anyway. If the drought continues we are going to have to import some anti- C-14 folks just to stir things up a bit.
Brian
Brian, didn't you read what he wrote? he was driving with HDs. Hence, picture a huge trailer and the C14 pulling. Assuming 3 Harley's on the trailer, and the c14 getting 15 mpg, if all four bikes owners pay for that fuel, that makes the claimed 60 mpg. Pretty obvious, me thinks. ::)
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I think that wind direction and speed have also a profound influence on mileage.
+1
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Brian, didn't you read what he wrote? he was driving with HDs. Hence, picture a huge trailer and the C14 pulling. Assuming 3 Harley's on the trailer, and the c14 getting 15 mpg, if all four bikes owners pay for that fuel, that makes the claimed 60 mpg. Pretty obvious, me thinks. ::)
Keep your day job. The comedy thing isn't working for you.
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I find in econo mode first thing in the morning the motor runs smoother, but cant detect any noticable difference when the motor is warm.
Saying that I havent checked the actual litres/kilometer display. I have a big trip coming up in Feb so will have a play them and see what if any difference it makes.
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It just goes to show how desperate things are around here. We have to face facts, there is little whining, just about zero hysterics or exaggeration and now the humor is vaporizing. We really can't blame Martin- he sees the need for humor and then saw a post containing the two subjects about mileage and Harleys..... who could resist?
;)
If things don't improve shortly someone is going to have to play the K- trump card....
Brian
Keep your day job. The comedy thing isn't working for you.
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Just curious where you believe you feel the power difference.
It automatically drops out of the ECO mapping if you apply more than 30% throttle. That's why I try to remember to engage it every time I ride. That way it's in ECO when it might matter, and doesn't do anything when I feel the urge for power.
Honestly, I can't think of a reason NOT to have it on. I just wish it would remember the setting when you turn the bike off.
I turn mine off when I'm running a road with a lot of twisties. The reason is that if I'm running through curves without the RPM's up high enough, I feel the transition from eco to normal mode as I roll into the throttle and it makes for a surge of power at a time when I want the power to come on smoothly.
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Keep your day job. The comedy thing isn't working for you.
Perhaps there was something lost in the translation? :o
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We could always try to get The Cap'n to come back?
It just goes to show how desperate things are around here. We have to face facts, there is little whining, just about zero hysterics or exaggeration and now the humor is vaporizing. We really can't blame Martin- he sees the need for humor and then saw a post containing the two subjects about mileage and Harleys..... who could resist?
;)
If things don't improve shortly someone is going to have to play the K- trump card....
Brian
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I noticed that the on/off throttle transition is smoother in normal mode that in eco. This was especially noticed when I was riding in the mountains over Labor Day.
But I definitely get about 5 mpg better when in eco, even when cruising at about 83 indicated on the speedo.
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Keep your day job. The comedy thing isn't working for you.
You're right...
I guess I've been living here for too long :'(
sniff... sniff...
mmmh... it smells bitter...
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I was searching through the threads and came up on this one. My question to the honerable members is....In Eco mode the bike runs a leaner mixture, which causes more heat. I am no mechanic, but I wonder if it hurts the bike in the long term? I always ride my Connie in Eco mode as I too have not seen a significant difference in performance, and that is because I poop myself if the bike gets past 8000 RPM's!!! ha ha just kidding there is some difference but 99% of the touring I do it just makes sense to get the better gas mileage, just wonder if it can cause excessive wear or hurt the bike.... I am sure Kawasaki thought of that so I assume its safe to keep it in Eco.
BTW got the brake guard put on due to the recall. Dealer did it while fixing my differential leak. I called to say, Hey guys I got a recall notice about the break guard, they said yeah we know cuz we had the parts when you brought the bike in for the diff so we did the fix at the same time, sorry forgot to tell you....
Dave
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Good lads!
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Yeah, I gotta say that the dealer I have been with these last 13 years in Calgary (Blackfoot Motorsports) have been great. They are not perfect but then who is. They really try hard to please the customer. If they mess up they fix the problem right away at almost any expense. When they were installing the differential seals they accidently crushed the bearing. When they found out that they could not get the bearings ordered in right away and had no eta of getting them, they took a 2012 Connie and replaced my diff with the 2012 (NEW) diff. I told them not to do it as it would take a brand new bike off the floor, but the owner said he felt fully responsible for the error on their part and wanted to make it right!!! At first they were going to use a 2011 used bike but the owner said no, use the 2012.....very lucky here in Calgary!!
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I just returned from a 6 day 2782 miles Labor Day ride to N. Carolina.
Below are the actual MPG's NOT from the bike computer.
Hi 53.33
Interstate at 75 to 80 (ECO on)
Lo 35.18
Playing in the twisties (ECO off)
Average for the trip 43.53
63.9 gallons total @ $257.34
Throttle response is smoother in normal mode with small throttle openings.
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I was searching through the threads and came up on this one. My question to the honerable members is....In Eco mode the bike runs a leaner mixture, which causes more heat. I am no mechanic, but I wonder if it hurts the bike in the long term? I always ride my Connie in Eco mode as I too have not seen a significant difference in performance, and that is because I poop myself if the bike gets past 8000 RPM's!!! ha ha just kidding there is some difference but 99% of the touring I do it just makes sense to get the better gas mileage, just wonder if it can cause excessive wear or hurt the bike.... I am sure Kawasaki thought of that so I assume its safe to keep it in Eco.
BTW got the brake guard put on due to the recall. Dealer did it while fixing my differential leak. I called to say, Hey guys I got a recall notice about the break guard, they said yeah we know cuz we had the parts when you brought the bike in for the diff so we did the fix at the same time, sorry forgot to tell you....
Dave
The bike only runs in this mode at moderate RPMs and throttle openings. I've done a lot of homework because I am now running a PowerCommander with Auto Tune on my Ninja 1000. I've gone to about a 13.7-14.0 Air fuel ratio in my economy map. I guess I should have said that I have two maps with a switch on my Ninja now - an economy mode and "power mode". I'm getting about 15% better economy in the economy mode just like on the Concours. Even 14.0 is considered very safe. You basically set it up to run the leaner A/F ratio in the cruise rpms and at 5-20% throttle opening. Above 20% throttle opening it reverts to a richer mixture. I talked at length with the PowrCommander help guys and they tell me that 14.0 AF is very save in those ranges, and based upon my homework I believe it.
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I'm with everyone else on the 4 to 5 mpg's but I've also noticed my hands don't go to sleep as quickly when the bike is NOT in ECO mode. I have pretty much quit using it just for this reason.
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I just returned from a 6 day 2782 miles Labor Day ride to N. Carolina.
Below are the actual MPG's NOT from the bike computer.
Hi 53.33
Interstate at 75 to 80 (ECO on)
Lo 35.18
Playing in the twisties (ECO off)
Average for the trip 43.53
63.9 gallons total @ $257.34
Throttle response is smoother in normal mode with small throttle openings.
I run ECO mode all the time. I haven't really noticed a problem with throttle response.
$257.34 / 63.9 = $4.027 per gallon. Where were you riding? Gas around here isn't nearly that high.
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I've been playing with Eco/nonEco for a few mos now and I am not convinced it actually helps that much.
I have been doing my tests at running to 200miles on a tank on the slab.
I consistently get about 46MPG (Actual not what the display says) when running between 70 - 75 and it's the same if I run Eco or do not run Eco. But I DO notice more of a buzz when in Eco mode.
I've pretty much stopped using it for now, I MAY decide to have the ECU reflashed at some point and what I would do then is have the stock map flashed into the ECO tables and then the new modified map flashed into the normal tables so I can really decide to romp or relax :)
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$257.34 / 63.9 = $4.027 per gallon. Where were you riding? Gas around here isn't nearly that high.
Check the premium prices of Florida, Georgia, and North Carolina. The only reason he did that good is
because he must have purchased some gas in South Carolina.
http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx (http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx)
Greensboro NC Premium prices: http://www.gasbuddy.com/GB_Map_Gas_Prices.aspx?z=7&lat=36.050659&long=-79.862305&ft=C&tl=48 (http://www.gasbuddy.com/GB_Map_Gas_Prices.aspx?z=7&lat=36.050659&long=-79.862305&ft=C&tl=48)
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3-5 MPG increase for me in ECO on the freeway.
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Check the premium prices of Florida, Georgia, and North Carolina. The only reason he did that good is
because he must have purchased some gas in South Carolina.
http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx (http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx)
Greensboro NC Premium prices: http://www.gasbuddy.com/GB_Map_Gas_Prices.aspx?z=7&lat=36.050659&long=-79.862305&ft=C&tl=48 (http://www.gasbuddy.com/GB_Map_Gas_Prices.aspx?z=7&lat=36.050659&long=-79.862305&ft=C&tl=48)
Yes, and the fact that I ran 89 octane more than 93 kept the cost down a little. Regular 87 was going for about $3.79 to 3.89 most of the time. 93 was usually about 30 cent or so higher. SC had 87 octane as low as 3.59 but we usually did not need fuel when we saw the low priced stuff.
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I've been playing with Eco/nonEco for a few mos now and I am not convinced it actually helps that much.
I have been doing my tests at running to 200miles on a tank on the slab.
I consistently get about 46MPG (Actual not what the display says) when running between 70 - 75 and it's the same if I run Eco or do not run Eco. But I DO notice more of a buzz when in Eco mode.
I've pretty much stopped using it for now, I MAY decide to have the ECU reflashed at some point and what I would do then is have the stock map flashed into the ECO tables and then the new modified map flashed into the normal tables so I can really decide to romp or relax :)
I ran the first tank of this trip in normal mode. 111 miles using 2.9 gallons equaling 38.27mpg.
The 2nd tank was 192 @ 4.2 = 45.7 using ECO. All interstate, same speeds, the only difference was the ECO mode. Tank 3 was even better at 195 @ 3.8 = 51.31. All further interstate runs yielded 50 mpg plus.
So on my bike ECO seems to be good for at least an extra 7 mpg.
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Average for the trip 43.53
Almost precisely what my display says of average gas mileage since my last reset about 15,000 miles ago.
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I think riding habits affect how much eco mode helps. If you take long trips on the slab at a constant speed under 80 mpg it makes a noticeable and significant difference. If you whomp on the throttle constantly on the road or your average speed is above 80, you're overriding eco mode anyway and you won't see much of a difference. I see no downside to just leaving it in eco mode.
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I turn it on when I'm just cruising. If it stayed in the selected mode when turning off the bike, I would probably have it on most of the time.
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I turn it on when I'm just cruising. If it stayed in the selected mode when turning off the bike, I would probably have it on most of the time.
+1
Although, I haven't really paid attention regarding increased vibrations. I'll pay attention to that next time I'm slabbing it.
I think riding habits affect how much eco mode helps. If you take long trips on the slab at a constant speed under 80 mpg it makes a noticeable and significant difference. If you whomp on the throttle constantly on the road or your average speed is above 80, you're overriding eco mode anyway and you won't see much of a difference. I see no downside to just leaving it in eco mode.
Is 80 mph over the throttle or rpm limits that over-ride ECO? I didn't think that was fast enough.
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Is 80 mph over the throttle or rpm limits that over-ride ECO? I didn't think that was fast enough.
I think it is throttle position that controls ECO mode. You can see it go off in any gear at any speed just by opening the throttle.
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As to why it will not stay on I wonder if the EPA had something to do with that. Maybe more emissions of some sort in ECO mode so to meet average requirements they had to have it off as a default. Just a guess.
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I think it is throttle position that controls ECO mode. You can see it go off in any gear at any speed just by opening the throttle.
Which "ECO mode" are you refering to? There the one indicator that automatically comes on when you're driving "economically", and there is the one that is manually turned on and off at the left grip. The latter is what I believe everyone is talking about here. I've never noticed the manually set indicator ever going off just because I opened her up.
I'm pretty sure that the ECO mode is over-ridden if the throttle is more than 30% opened or if the rpm is above come certain number (can't remember exactly what).
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Which "ECO mode" are you refering to? There the one indicator that automatically comes on when you're driving "economically", and there is the one that is manually turned on and off at the left grip. The latter is what I believe everyone is talking about here. I've never noticed the manually set indicator ever going off just because I opened her up.
I'm pretty sure that the ECO mode is over-ridden if the throttle is more than 30% opened or if the rpm is above come certain number (can't remember exactly what).
Yup you are correct. I mixed the 2 up in my mind.
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+1
Although, I haven't really paid attention regarding increased vibrations. I'll pay attention to that next time I'm slabbing it.
Is 80 mph over the throttle or rpm limits that over-ride ECO? I didn't think that was fast enough.
Neither, it's speed. But yes there are throttle and RPM overrides too but I don't know exactly what the ranges are.
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Neither, it's speed. But yes there are throttle and RPM overrides too but I don't know exactly what the ranges are.
Ok, you've made me look this up again. ECO mode is active when:
1. RPM is less that 6,000
2. Throttle position is less than 30%
3. Speed is less than 80 mph. (My manual says 152 mph, but that's a misprint. The Kawi website says 80.)
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152 would have to be a misprint as the 2010+ I believe is speed governed to 150 tops :)
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152 would have to be a misprint as the 2010+ I believe is speed governed to 150 tops :)
I believe that the agreed upon limit is 250 kph, so whatever mph that calculates to (155+/-)?
I can attest that my 2011 did indeed go over 150 mph per GPS (over 160 on the speedo) at least once. I just won't say who was driving it at the time. 8)
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The "gentlemans agreement" if you will among the manufacturers is 186 MPH. I don't think we need to worry about though. To get that kind of speed out of a Connie would require massive amounts of extra thrust........like a turbo.
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The "gentlemans agreement" if you will among the manufacturers is 186 MPH. I don't think we need to worry about though. To get that kind of speed out of a Connie would require massive amounts of extra thrust........like a turbo.
Or a Silverdammit.
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;D
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The "gentlemans agreement" if you will among the manufacturers is 186 MPH. I don't think we need to worry about though. To get that kind of speed out of a Connie would require massive amounts of extra thrust........like a turbo.
I thought that I had read somewhere that they had more recently agreed to 250 kph on some bikes, but yes, the original agreement was 186 mph (actually 300 kph).
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Neither, it's speed. But yes there are throttle and RPM overrides too but I don't know exactly what the ranges are.
Ok, you've made me look this up again. ECO mode is active when:
1. RPM is less that 6,000
2. Throttle position is less than 30%
3. Speed is less than 80 mph. (My manual says 152 mph, but that's a misprint. The Kawi website says 80.)
Actually, that is not what the manual says. It doesn't say it is an override to the FEAM (what you/we are calling ECO Mode) it says those have to be true before you can turn on the mode.
From the manual (both 2010 and 2013): " Fuel economy assistance mode can be activated[...] when rpm is less than 6 000, throttle position is less than 30 percent and speed is less than 152 mph. " It could be a translation error, but it doesn't say the system will switch off when those conditions are not true, just that you can't "activate" the mode. I have never used FEAM before, although I plan to at some point just to see what it does.
So some pending questions that haven't yet been answered (that I can find) would be:
* Is the FEAM map an Eco map across the whole power/throttle/rpm range? Or is it just "lean" for the part of the map that represents cruising (low throttle, low RPM)?
* While FEAM is turned on, does it switch off automatically under certain conditions?
* If so, what are the exact conditions?
* If so, does it turn back on automatically under other conditions?
* If so, does that mean the manual is incorrect?
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You should ask Mr. Guhl.
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Actually, that is not what the manual says. It doesn't say it is an override to the FEAM (what you/we are calling ECO Mode) it says those have to be true before you can turn on the mode.
From the manual (both 2010 and 2013): " Fuel economy assistance mode can be activated[...] when rpm is less than 6 000, throttle position is less than 30 percent and speed is less than 152 mph. " It could be a translation error, but it doesn't say the system will switch off when those conditions are not true, just that you can't "activate" the mode. I have never used FEAM before, although I plan to at some point just to see what it does.
So some pending questions that haven't yet been answered (that I can find) would be:
* Is the FEAM map an Eco map across the whole power/throttle/rpm range? Or is it just "lean" for the part of the map that represents cruising (low throttle, low RPM)? (unknown to me)
* While FEAM is turned on, does it switch off automatically under certain conditions?
* If so, what are the exact conditions?
* If so, does it turn back on automatically under other conditions?
* If so, does that mean the manual is incorrect?
2014 -- turned ECO on the day I picked it up and haven't turned it off yet(haven't had to engage it again it comes on automatically now). Have seen the logo on at 4500rpm (close to 160kph, as most of you would know ;)!!) in top gear, so it seems to work above 80mph.
ECO logo shuts off above 6000rpm then reappears below 6000rpm as well it disappears when the throttle is twisted above half regardless of RPM.
Will try switching it off on my next rip to the Rockies, because I have noticed a slight throttle blip in aggressive riding with the ECO function on.
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I don't turn the ECO mode on until I have pulled out onto the street and am in 3rd gear. I hold the throttle steady and engage it and immediately feel an increase in speed.
Besides factory cruise control, I wish Kawasaki would make one of the dash display options a large LED speedometer. It is hard to maintain "in town" speeds and takes more than a quick glance to read that low on the speedo. My wife's car has this feature and it is very convenient.
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So some pending questions that haven't yet been answered (that I can find) would be:
* Is the FEAM map an Eco map across the whole power/throttle/rpm range? Or is it just "lean" for the part of the map that represents cruising (low throttle, low RPM)?
* While FEAM is turned on, does it switch off automatically under certain conditions?
* If so, what are the exact conditions?
* If so, does it turn back on automatically under other conditions?
* If so, does that mean the manual is incorrect?
What part of the manual are you guys saying might be incorrect? I don't see any errors in my 2010 manual...unless I'm missing something?
Yes, there is a completely different set of maps for "FEAM" ECO mode. I can post up the maps for both later on today if you guys would like to compare them? I don't remember if the ignition and STP maps are different for ECO mode...I'll have to check. I will advise.
I think there might be some confusion here between the "ECO Riding Range" and the actual "ECO mode". There are two different "ECO" logos that will show up on the screen. If the ECO riding range logo shows up on your screen, it does not mean that you are in the ECO Mode.
There is only one way to get the bike into the "FEAM" ECO Mode...you have to turn it on with the switch on the LH controls. It does not come back on automatically. It turns off when you shut the bike off, and you have to turn it on again when you start the bike again. So, if you're on a trip or whatever, you will have to re-engage the ECO mode after every fuel stop...or any stop where the bike is turned off.
There is also an ECO riding range...this will pop up on the screen even in normal mode, as long as you're riding the bike in an economical manner (determined by the FI ECU). It will pop on and off depending on RPM and throttle position. I haven't paid too much attention as to when it actually goes on and off...but it does shut off somewhere around 3500 RPM/80 MPH or so? I forget exactly where, but I rarely ever see it as I'm usually riding at 3800-4000 RPM when on the highway, and over 80 MPH.
I've tried the ECO mode on a couple trips and in my experience it made no difference in MPG at all. However, I was probably running at 4000 RPM in 6th gear all day, or for a couple days. I think for it to make any appreciable difference, you would have to be riding at 3500 RPM or less.
Just speculating of course, because I've read reports of other C14 owners seeing significant increases in MPG. I personally have not.
I'll take a look at the ECO mode map later today and see how much difference there is and in what ranges.
Cheers,
Rem 8)
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2014 -- turned ECO on the day I picked it up and haven't turned it off yet(haven't had to engage it again it comes on automatically now). Have seen the logo on at 4500rpm (close to 160kph, as most of you would know ;)!!) in top gear, so it seems to work above 80mph.
ECO logo shuts off above 6000rpm then reappears below 6000rpm as well it disappears when the throttle is twisted above half regardless of RPM.
Will try switching it off on my next rip to the Rockies, because I have noticed a slight throttle blip in aggressive riding with the ECO function on.
Maybe something changed on the 2011-up models, but my 2010 does not stay in ECO Mode. It has to be re-engaged every time you turn the bike on.
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My 2012 is the same as Rembrant's 2010. I have to re-engage eco mode each time I start the bike. It goes to std mode each time the bike is turned off.
Fork
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I've searched everywhere on my 08, and I guess that Kawi forgot to install an eco button on mine. Wish they had started out with the eco mode on Gen I models. Guess you can't have everything. Best I have been able to get is 42.3 MPG (US), average.
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What part of the manual are you guys saying might be incorrect? I don't see any errors in my 2010 manual...unless I'm missing something?
I am saying the manual might be incorrect if people claim FEAM shuts off automatically and comes back simply because the manual doesn't say it can do that.
Yes, there is a completely different set of maps for "FEAM" ECO mode.
I know there are two different maps, but I don't know exactly how they differ
I can post up the maps for both later on today if you guys would like to compare them? I don't remember if the ignition and STP maps are different for ECO mode...I'll have to check. I will advise.
That would be neat. Not sure if I would know what they mean, exactly, but someone might.
I think there might be some confusion here between the "ECO Riding Range" and the actual "ECO mode". There are two different "ECO" logos that will show up on the screen. If the ECO riding range logo shows up on your screen, it does not mean that you are in the ECO Mode.
I am not confused, but I think some people are. It would have made more sense to word the two icons differently- most illogical what they chose to do.
There is only one way to get the bike into the "FEAM" ECO Mode...you have to turn it on with the switch on the LH controls. It does not come back on automatically. It turns off when you shut the bike off, and you have to turn it on again when you start the bike again.
Exactly what I thought... yet other people claim it stays on, which I didn't want to say was wrong (because I had not tried it before) but I have seen conflicting posts about it.
I'll take a look at the ECO mode map later today and see how much difference there is and in what ranges.
Coolness
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I've searched everywhere on my 08, and I guess that Kawi forgot to install an eco button on mine. Wish they had started out with the eco mode on Gen I models. Guess you can't have everything. Best I have been able to get is 42.3 MPG (US), average.
The FEAM feature is only available on the 2nd gen (2010-2014) Concours 14.
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The FEAM feature is only available on the 2nd gen (2010-2014) Concours 14.
Yep, I was aware, just bitching that my bike didn't have the feature... Sunday morning satire. tp
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Yep, I was aware, just bitching that my bike didn't have the feature...
Well, based on what most people think about it, you aren't missing much :)
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Well, based on what most people think about it, you aren't missing much :)
4-6 MPG improvement would be nice. Too much traffic and too many LEOs to really ride the bike around here, as intended, but it is a great ride for simply cruising at legal speeds, and sometimes above them.
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The economical riding indicator comes on automatically when you ride efficiently.
The fuel economy assistant mode "EAM" can be turned "on" and "off" by
the meter mode button.
Two totally different ECO modes
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All of this Gen. 2 stuff is interesting and a little off- putting. Sometimes I almost want one just so I can 1) experence this 'stuff' for myself adn 2) attempt to fix some of what was changed for the worse (individual things, I am not saying the Gen. 2 bikes are inferior to Gen. 1 bikes).
Must resist urge. ;)
Brian
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Agree. I like being able to use the front or back brake when I want, independently of one another.
I like ABS, but rode over 40 years without it,
Heated grips? We don't need no stinking heated grips! And on and on it goes.
The one thing I do miss is the cruise control. NO, WAIT, Gen II's don't have cruise either.
I believe that my $6000 savings getting a Gen I was worth the missing items, and I got the fob in my pocket, like the other owners. tp
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I am saying the manual might be incorrect if people claim FEAM shuts off automatically and comes back simply because the manual doesn't say it can do that.
I know there are two different maps, but I don't know exactly how they differ
That would be neat. Not sure if I would know what they mean, exactly, but someone might.
I am not confused, but I think some people are. It would have made more sense to word the two icons differently- most illogical what they chose to do.
Exactly what I thought... yet other people claim it stays on, which I didn't want to say was wrong (because I had not tried it before) but I have seen conflicting posts about it.
Max,
I didn't mean to suggest that you were confused...I just meant that there appears to be some general confusion on the way the system works...or doesn't work...lol.
And I can't personally find anything incorrect in the owner's manual either...unless someone wants to point it out to me.
There are two different ECO's:
Fuel Economy Assistance Mode:
This is the "ECO Mode" that has to be switched on and off by the rider. It has nothing to do with speed, engine RPM, or throttle position. It is a different set of fuel maps in the FI ECU that are a little leaner than riding the motorcycle in normal mode. The "FEAM" does not turn on automatically at any time. The only automatic part about is, is that it does turn off when you turn the motorcycle off. It then must be turned on again by the rider when you start the bike again. This mode is indicated on the screen by the little rectangle "ECO" logo in the lower left hand corner of the screen. See the owner's manual for details.
Fuel Economy Riding Indicator:
This isn't a "mode" at all, it is just an indicator. You are still in normal mode and there are no changes in fueling in the FI ECU. Your bike is just telling you that you're riding your motorcycle in a manner that is "optimum for fuel efficiency", nothing more. Since this is only an indicator for optimum efficiency, it IS related to speed and RPM, etc. This is the indicator that would shut off at 80 MPH or higher. It has noting to do with the Fuel Economy Assistance Mode or any type of leaner fueling. When you are riding in this efficient zone, this is when the little "ECO" in the shape of a triangle will pop up on the screen, with the "E" on top of the "CO". This is in the owner's manual as well. As I said above, I rarely ever see this one unless I'm stuck in traffic that is doing the speed limit. If you ride your C14 on the faster side or at higher RPM's, you will rarely ever see this "ECO" indicator on the screen.
I will post up the two different maps later for any of the inquiring mind types that want to see how much leaner the "FEAM" fueling actually is. All I can tell you is that it isn't much, but you can look at the numbers and see for yourselves. They are all just numbers that can be compared...if a given cell in the normal map is 100, and the same cell in the ECO mode is 95, then you know that there is 5% less fuel being injected at that particular time. The numbers themselves don't mean anything to us common folk...they're just part of the overall calculation. BDF might know what the numbers are, but I personally do not...I just know that the percentage differences are what is real and what matters to us.
Rem :o
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Interesting info. BTW, I was perusing your site and noticed one service, removing speed limiters. Does the C14 have a limiter, or simply run out of power, before the super sport limited speed, due to cams, injector size, mapping and shear weight. Don't believe I will ever need such change, due to my riding habits, but am wondering if Kawi did limit the 14... tomp
Oh, and Canada would be quite a haul from Texas to get the work done, too...tp
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Interesting info. BTW, I was perusing your site and noticed one service, removing speed limiters. Does the C14 have a limiter, or simply run out of power, before the super sport limited speed, due to cams, injector size, mapping and shear weight. Don't believe I will ever need such change, due to my riding habits, but am wondering if Kawi did limit the 14... tomp
Hey Tomp,
The 2008-2009 Concours-14 does not have a speed limiter. It's the 2010-up models that do...they're limited at 154 MPH top speed. Anybody that has access to the ECU...like Guhl for example, can disable this limiter. I don't believe it's all that necessary on the street, but I believe some guys have hit the limiter on the 2010-up models when doing dyno tuning.
HTH,
Rem.
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Does that mean my 08 should do over 154MPH, if I was silly enough to try to do so? ;D ;D
I didn't say this, but did have it less than 20 mph away from that speed one time on a deserted road. Sure didn't take long to get there, either.
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Does that mean my 08 should do over 154MPH, if I was silly enough to try to do so? ;D ;D
Yessir, it sure will. Your 08 will do around 170 MPH...maybe a little more;).
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Yessir, it sure will. Your 08 will do around 170 MPH...maybe a little more;).
Yup, my 2008 does 170 but its not stock.
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It might, but not with me on it. At my age, my reflexes aren't prepared for such speed. Been 160+ in a Vette, but Not so on a motorcycle.
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Well first of all, I have to be honest and say that when I bought my '08 in July of '07, there was no choice so I certainly did not choose a Gen. I or Gen. II- only one was available. As far as ABS, I would have purchased that as an option but there were none available w/in a long radius that I could find. In fact, I found only 1 C-14 in the nearest four states and it was not in the state I lived in. So that is how I ended up with a Gen. I without ABS.
If I do end up with a Gen. II though, I think those linked brakes will have to go. Now I will ride the bike for a bit and generate my own opinion of course but going by the overall feedback, the linked brakes could use a little.... polish (read: elimination!). I also would return the Flash To Pass button on the front of the left handlebar to a Flash To Pass function because I like it and I have it tied in with my air horn. I never found hitting the two buttons on the dash to be much of a problem.
But I still have another 100K miles to put on this chassis first. ;)
Brian
Agree. I like being able to use the front or back brake when I want, independently of one another.
I like ABS, but rode over 40 years without it,
Heated grips? We don't need no stinking heated grips! And on and on it goes.
The one thing I do miss is the cruise control. NO, WAIT, Gen II's don't have cruise either.
I believe that my $6000 savings getting a Gen I was worth the missing items, and I got the fob in my pocket, like the other owners. tp
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For anybody that might be curious what is going on inside their C14's FI ECU when the Fuel Economy Assistance Mode is activated, you can have a look at the two images below.
The image below is your normal mode TPS fuel map. This is the map that is controlling your fuel injectors between approximately 10% throttle position and 100% WOT, at least on the North American bikes. Make note of the block I highlighted on the map @ 23% TPS and 3400 RPM. I picked this block just so that it was within a block of where one might* be while cruising on the highway. The number is 995.
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/rubyred90/C14NormalTPSFuelMap_zpsd6e4acbd.jpg) (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/rubyred90/media/C14NormalTPSFuelMap_zpsd6e4acbd.jpg.html)
The image below is your ECO Mode TPS fueling map. Now, I highlighted the same block in this map as I did in the normal mode map. In ECO mode the same block is now 945.
(http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/rubyred90/C14ECOModeTPSFuelMap_zps7af665ea.jpg) (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/rubyred90/media/C14ECOModeTPSFuelMap_zps7af665ea.jpg.html)
So a quick calculation tells us that the same block in ECO mode is 5% less, so we know that the bike is getting 5% less fuel at that particular time. You could go over all the blocks and do the same calculations, and then calculate the average...if you were curious enough...lol. I'm not.
I checked the other maps, and the ECO Mode also uses different ignition maps. I checked some random cells in the same group of blocks, and it looks like there is 2-4 more degrees of ignition advance when in ECO mode.
By the way, what Kawasaki did here is no different than what Fuelmoto was doing before the GEN-II models came out. They had Economy Maps for the PC3/5 that knocked the fueling down a few percent in the area where most people would be cruising. If anybody with a pre-2010 Concurs-14 wanted to, they could install the external map switch on the handlebar for their PC5, and run a Performance map and an ECO Map. This would give them a very similar system to what the 2010-up C14's have. The good part would be, you could set the switch to the ECO mode, and leave it there if you wanted to.
Rem 8)
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If I do end up with a Gen. II [...] I also would return the Flash To Pass button on the front of the left handlebar to a Flash To Pass function because I like it and I have it tied in with my air horn. I never found hitting the two buttons on the dash to be much of a problem.
The Gen 2 has a flash to pass built into the high/low beam switch in addition to a separate rear switch for dash display control.
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Yep, but my FTP button engages the air horn if the regular horn button is also pressed. In other words, I just loosely wrap my hand around the left grip (Easy Boys!) when in traffic say, on the highway, and if I just 'squeeze', the air horn sounds. I could not do that with the backward facing FTP on the Gen. 2's. So I would re- wire a Gen. 2 to work like a Gen. 1 and re-gain my air horn choice.
Brian
The Gen 2 has a flash to pass built into the high/low beam switch in addition to a separate rear switch for dash display control.
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Was talking to a gentleman using a pair of C-14 engines in an unusual application the other day and he mentioned that DynoJet now has a PC for a C-14 that will also control the spark. ?? Struck me as a bit odd but he was quite positive that this was the case. Heard anything about that?
Brian
<snip>
By the way, what Kawasaki did here is no different than what Fuelmoto was doing before the GEN-II models came out. They had Economy Maps for the PC3/5 that knocked the fueling down a few percent in the area where most people would be cruising. If anybody with a pre-2010 Concurs-14 wanted to, they could install the external map switch on the handlebar for their PC5, and run a Performance map and an ECO Map. This would give them a very similar system to what the 2010-up C14's have. The good part would be, you could set the switch to the ECO mode, and leave it there if you wanted to.
Rem 8)
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For anybody that might be curious what is going on inside their C14's FI ECU when the Fuel Economy Assistance Mode is activated, you can have a look at the two images below.
Thanks! This tells me exactly what I expected. The FEAM map is different ACROSS THE BOARD. This directly implies that the system neither switches to the normal map under high RPM or throttle, nor does it emulate the normal map under high RPM or throttle. It stays "eco-y" all the time. Although not 100% absolute, this is certain enough for me to disregard any post that claims staying in FEAM all the time doesn't hurt performance because it will drop out of that mode temporarily when you need performance. When it is on, it is on.
As a second issue- It also implies this might be a good (although not perfect) way to compare the before/after effects of something like a Guhl reflash, while riding. To be sure, we would need to see the secondary butterfly FEAM control map and compare that to the regular map (you supplied only the fuel trim map) to see how similar or different they are.
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It may stay in eco-mode without leaning the mixture in wot instances.
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Yep, but my FTP button engages the air horn if the regular horn button is also pressed. In other words, I just loosely wrap my hand around the left grip (Easy Boys!) when in traffic say, on the highway, and if I just 'squeeze', the air horn sounds. I could not do that with the backward facing FTP on the Gen. 2's. So I would re- wire a Gen. 2 to work like a Gen. 1 and re-gain my air horn choice.
The flash to pass on the gen 2 is not backwards facing. You press it down with your thumb. Either I don't understand what you are saying, or you don't know how the Gen 2 switches are laid out. Here is a diagram:
EDIT- OH, I think I know what you are saying- you have that mode button too on the rear and it acts as a flash-to-pass, not a mode button. So you can press that rear one and the front horn at the same time... something you can't do on the Gen 2.
Wouldn't it just make more sense to add a circuit so the high beam flashes with the horn so you wouldn't have to change any button function? I thought I saw such products online somewhere...
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It may stay in eco-mode without leaning the mixture in wot instances.
True, that is possible. It MIGHT switch to the regular non-FEAM map at high throttle. But it would be easier and more logical to just make the FEAM map NOT lean out on WOT as part of the FEAM map. Since they didn't do that, it implies it doesn't switch. At least, that is my thought process.
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When it is on, it is on.
You got it Max. I posted on page six about how the two ECO's differ. When you switch into the ECO/FEAM, you are switching to different maps...plain and simple. It does NO switching in and out of the mode on it's own. It's all rider control.
The ECO riding indicator does come on and off on it's own based on speed and RPM...but it has nothing to do with the actual ECO Mode/FEAM. See my earlier post on the previous page.
As a second issue- It also implies this might be a good (although not perfect) way to compare the before/after effects of something like a Guhl reflash, while riding. To be sure, we would need to see the secondary butterfly FEAM control map and compare that to the regular map (you supplied only the fuel trim map) to see how similar or different they are.
In the FI ECU, there is only one secondary fly map, so what changes Guhl makes is present in both normal and ECO modes.
Rem 8)
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Now Maxie, think of where the switch is and which direction it faces. The Gen. 1 switch is in front of the handlebar and so would be forward facing. The Gen. 2 FTP switch is mounted on the back of the handlebar and is most assuredly backward facing.
My horn button is exactly like your horn button (but bigger and firmer.... sorry, could not resist ;D ) and works the electric horn, just like on any stock C-14. You know, the one that goes "meep- meep" and with amplification can be heard by the human ear. But I also have an air horn. Now the air horn is wired into the bike such that it has no separate button (the bike has more than enough controls already), but is activate by the horn button BUT ONLY when the HIGH BEAMS are also on. So, I can choose which horn I use by using the FTP button. When I am in traffic on the highway, I ride with my left hand such that my thumb is over the horn button and my forefinger is over the FTP lever: if I simply squeeze my left hand, the high beams flash and the air horn sounds. This cannot be done in any practical way on a Gen. 2 as I would have to ride with my finger behind the handlebar on the FTP button- not very ergdynamic and I would have to remember to push both buttons.
Brian
The flash to pass on the gen 2 is not backwards facing. You press it down with your thumb. Either I don't understand what you are saying, or you don't know how the Gen 2 switches are laid out. Here is a diagram:
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In the stock ECU, there is only one secondary fly map, so what changes Guhl makes are present in both normal and ECO modes.
Ug! But that runs contrary to what some other posts in other threads were saying, that you could switch to the FEAM map and see what it was like before. Perhaps they were just incorrect? Or maybe they were just feeling the difference of the fuel and ignition maps (which Guhl also tweaks)... which is a shame, because from what I understand, those changes are MINOR compared to what REALLY makes the huge difference, which is the secondary butterfly map.
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This cannot be done in any practical way on a Gen. 2 as I would have to ride with my finger behind the handlebar on the FTP button- not very ergdynamic and I would have to remember to push both buttons.
Brianie, I think you replied to the first version of my post before I edited it with the "ah ha" moment when I re-read what I /you originally wrote... :)
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Yep but you still missed it when you said why not wire the high beams to the horn button. That is not what I am doing at all.
Again, I have two horns on my bike: One for pleasantly saying ' toodle- oh', the other for waking up that person on the cell phone who is sliding into my lane. I have no additional buttons of any kind to make this work. The FTP button on a Gen. 2 bike, which is just another position for the high beam switch that is spring loaded, would not allow me to use the bike as I use mine with the forward FTP button. If / when I buy a Gen. 2 bike, I will re- wire the left controls so the FTP is again moved to the forward switch on the handlebar and give up the display roll through function to have it that way.
Brian
I think you replied to the first version of my post before I edited it with the "ah ha" moment when I re-read what I /you originally wrote...
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;D
Brian
Brianie, I think you replied to the first version of my post before I edited it with the "ah ha" moment when I re-read what I /you originally wrote... :)
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Ug! But that runs contrary to what some other posts in other threads were saying, that you could switch to the FEAM map and see what it was like before. Perhaps they were just incorrect? Or maybe they were just feeling the difference of the fuel and ignition maps (which Guhl also tweaks)... which is a shame, because from what I understand, those changes are MINOR compared to what REALLY makes the huge difference, which is the secondary butterfly map.
Oh...sorry, I spoke too soon. What I should have said was I only have access to one map section for secondary flies. Guhl has his own software and may have access to more than I do. I'll go back and check again (different laptop), but I'm pretty sure I only have the one secondary fly map, which is different again in each of the gears. If I don't have access to it, I can put in a request with Woolich and he'll likely open it up for me. It's one of those things...it likely wasn't added to the software because it wasn't needed.
The big change(s) in a Guhl re-flash is in the secondary fly map, below approx 4500 RPM. He changes the fuel mapping obviously, but as I understand it makes no changes to the ignition mapping at all.
Rem
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Again, I have two horns on my bike: One for pleasantly saying ' toodle- oh', the other for waking up that person on the cell phone who is sliding into my lane.
OK, I get it :)
My reading comprehension was obviously just focused on the FEAM stuff!
My horns are wired in parallel. In such cases as you described, I end up tapping the horn button SUPER fast. The electric horn responds instantaneously, while the air horn takes a small fraction of a second to wind up.... so I can create a more friendly "beep" when someone is sleeping a stop light, for example... without blasting him to the next zip code :)
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Back to FEAM question...
'Scuse my ignorance, but is the ECO mode similar to, say, the rain mode that I had on my Duke 690 and what other ride by wire bikes have? Seems there are all kinds of changes taking place on those modes, besides simply leaning the fuel. Mapping and ECU changes, HP and torque curve change, timing etc...
The Duke had three modes, rain, which was soft and worked well in traffic and dropped peak hp down to 70% max.
Standard, which allowed for linear acceleration with peak HP.
And #3, which allowed for power to come on immediately and pull like crazy. Believe it was referred to the kick butt/ticker getter mode...It was fun, but ya had to be thinking all the time or the flashing lights showed up in the mirrors.
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It may stay in eco-mode without leaning the mixture in wot instances.
True, that is possible. It MIGHT switch to the regular non-FEAM map at high throttle. But it would be easier and more logical to just make the FEAM map NOT lean out on WOT as part of the FEAM map. Since they didn't do that, it implies it doesn't switch. At least, that is my thought process.
Getting back to what Gary said here...if you compare the cell for WOT at 10,000 where the limiter is, it is also 5% less in ECO Mode. The FI ECU wouldn't switch out of the ECO mode map in this case.
Keep in mind that the C14 in stock trim is already running a pretty rich AFR, and even if it the fuel is reduced by 5%, it's still technically not anywhere near a lean condition. On top of this, the FI ECU does make fueling changes for the ram air above and beyond the fuel map cells. The FI ECU does this with a calculation from the VSS input. Once the bike hits high enough speeds, the ECU knows that there is more air coming in, so it starts adding more fuel on top of what is in the TPS fuel map.
Rem :o
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Back to FEAM question...
'Scuse my ignorance, but is the ECO mode similar to, say, the rain mode that I had on my Duke 690 and what other ride by wire bikes have? Seems there are all kinds of changes taking place on those modes, besides simply leaning the fuel. Mapping and ECU changes, HP and torque curve change, timing etc...
The Duke had three modes, rain, which was soft and worked well in traffic and dropped peak hp down to 70% max.
Standard, which allowed for linear acceleration with peak HP.
And #3, which allowed for power to come on immediately and pull like crazy. Believe it was referred to the kick butt/ticker getter mode...It was fun, but ya had to be thinking all the time or the flashing lights showed up in the mirrors.
Hey Tomp,
I can't comment too much on what KTM is doing, but they'd be altering the fuel and ignition curves for sure....not sure what else.
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Was talking to a gentleman using a pair of C-14 engines in an unusual application the other day and he mentioned that DynoJet now has a PC for a C-14 that will also control the spark. ?? Struck me as a bit odd but he was quite positive that this was the case. Heard anything about that?
Brian
He's likely using Power Commander ignition modules for the ZX14. You can dial the ignition curve wherever you want with that kit, and if it's plug N play for the ZX14, it more than likely fits on the C14 as well....and even if it did not, I'm sure it could be made to work easily enough.
I'm not sure why he'd want to modify the ignition curve on the C14...I believe it's pretty common, even for the heavily modded Kawi drag bikes to still run stock ignition. However, I'm certainly no expert on the matter.
Rem :o
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Yes, he is using ZX 14 ECU's on a pair of C-14's (one each, of course ;D ). What is throwing me is how can you advance the timing using a P.C.? Or does that module completely replace the ECU in firing the spark plugs? In other words, a P. C. can lengthen or shorten the F.I. pulse from the ECU for the injectors; but of course nothing could anticipate the spark signal from the ECU and advance it. ??
Brian
He's likely using Power Commander ignition modules for the ZX14. You can dial the ignition curve wherever you want with that kit, and if it's plug N play for the ZX14, it more than likely fits on the C14 as well....and even if it did not, I'm sure it could be made to work easily enough.
I'm not sure why he'd want to modify the ignition curve on the C14...I believe it's pretty common, even for the heavily modded Kawi drag bikes to still run stock ignition. However, I'm certainly no expert on the matter.
Rem :o
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Yes, he is using ZX 14 ECU's on a pair of C-14's (one each, of course ;D ). What is throwing me is how can you advance the timing using a P.C.? Or does that module completely replace the ECU in firing the spark plugs? In other words, a P. C. can lengthen or shorten the F.I. pulse from the ECU for the injectors; but of course nothing could anticipate the spark signal from the ECU and advance it. ??
Brian
I'm not familiar with the product myself, but it more than likely intercepts the pulses from the timing rotor on the end of the crank. That's been the defacto standard for advancing ignition since forever...by altering the pulse signal before it even gets to the ECU/CDI.
Muzzys makes an adjustable timing rotor for the C14 by the way...although I doubt they made it specifically for the C14...lol, I'm sure it's a ZX14 piece that just happens to fit;)
Oh, and remember when you do your valves, you can unplug the coil-on-plug harness? Or am I thinking of a different bike?...lol. Anyway, point is, the ignition harness is usually removable, so the PC ignition module may just tap in there and alter the ignition signal, same as it does for the fuel injectors.
Just guessing of course;).
Let me guess...these engines in a boat?...lol. Kawasaki ZX10R engines are starting to show up in boats around here;).
Rem :o
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That makes perfect sense- grabbing the trigger and using a different map / circuit entirely. My mind was stuck on the method used by to control the fuel injectors.
Yep, a boat. Fast boat. Big engines and he is going to make them bigger yet :-) It is also interesting making the swap between ECU's- he has had some success and some difficulty with that and is now in the realm of re- wiring. I am very interested to see both how this works out and what the differences are between the two ECU's (and the engine's from the ECU point of view).
Brian
I'm not familiar with the product myself, but it more than likely intercepts the pulses from the timing rotor on the end of the crank. That's been the defacto standard for advancing ignition since forever...by altering the pulse signal before it even gets to the ECU/CDI.
<snip>
Let me guess...these engines in a boat?...lol. Kawasaki ZX10R engines are starting to show up in boats around here;).
Rem :o
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Why is he using zx ecu's on c14 engines? why not one or the other? Is he having difficulty with the c14's VVT?
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No, in retrospect he is sorry he cannot make use of the VVT. Long story, and I don't want to give away any proprietary information but basically one cannot get ZX engines. C-14 engine VVT offers <potential> benefits in his application. Again, I do not want to give too much information as I do not know what is proprietary and what scoundrels from another forum may be looking and plotting for their own gain. Suffice it to say that is the man is successful, he will get powerplant benefits as yet unknown from this engine along with some trans-missive benefits. He is working on the gear range to use now. A fascinating project to say the least.
Brian
Why is he using zx ecu's on c14 engines? why not one or the other? Is he having difficulty with the c14's VVT?
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I no longer have my 2011 or the manual, but I do recall that it very specifically says that there is a throttle position and/or RPM where the ECO mode cuts out. I think I posted the exact wording in one of my old posts, but I'll have to try and find it. Maybe someone with a newer manual can verify.
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I no longer have my 2011 or the manual, but I do recall that it very specifically says that there is a throttle position and/or RPM where the ECO mode cuts out. I think I posted the exact wording in one of my old posts, but I'll have to try and find it. Maybe someone with a newer manual can verify.
I have a newer owner's manual (2010) and I didn't see anything about the ECO mode automatically switching on/off at different throttle positions and RPM's. Now, just because I didn't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there....but if somebody else wants to point it out to me, I'll read it.
My manual says that you cannot turn the ECO mode on above certain speeds or throttle openings...or something like that, but I didn't see anything about any automatic map switching functions.
Rem
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... but I do recall that it very specifically says that there is a throttle position and/or RPM where the ECO mode cuts out.
Memory can be a fickle thing...I believe Rem' is correct.
FUEL ECONOMY ASSISTANCE MODE
This motorcycle is equipped with a fuel economy assistance mode that helps maximize fuel efficiency. Activating the fuel economy assistance mode changes to a leaner fuel injection map that prioritizes fuel economy over rideability. The fuel economy assistance mode can be activated using the meter mode button on the left switch housing when rpm is less than 6000, throttle position is less than 30 percent and vehicle speed is less than 250km/h (152 MPH). When the fuel economy assistance mode is effective, the fuel economy assistance indicator appears on the multifunction meter.
1) it's a different leaner fuel map
2) You can only activate the leaner fuel map (and I suspect deactivate it, but I haven't tried it) when rpm is less than 6000, throttle position is less than 30%, and vehicle speed is less than 250 km/h.
3) the leaner fuel map is active when ever the "ECO" (left of time display below ODO/trip meter line) is displayed. It stays active regardless of speed, rpm, or throttle opening until you turn it off with the same button you turned it on with, or until the ignition is switched off.
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Sounds like an answer. I read Concours reviews today, and the media types said that the FEAM could increase mileage by up to 25%. Sounds kinda optimistic to me. Anyone getting that kind of increase? Most postings here show a 4-6 MPG increase. That's not 25%, but better than nothing. tp
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That seems to be inline with what most are reporting, something like 4-6. A real improvement on the Gen. 2 bikes IMO because there is no better, easier way to stretch the legs of a vehicle than reduce its fuel consumption. Riding long distances, I would really appreciate that ability.
I can get it on a Gen.1 but only by spending a lot of money and 'twiddling' a PC V and controls onto the bike. I am considering doing that very thing this year though as it looks like I will be keeping my '08 into the foreseeable future.
Brian
Sounds like an answer. I read Concours reviews today, and the media types said that the FEAM could increase mileage by up to 25%. Sounds kinda optimistic to me. Anyone getting that kind of increase? Most postings here show a 4-6 MPG increase. That's not 25%, but better than nothing. tp
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This all sounds very complex. I just changed the shield from the CB Ultra to the gen 1 stock screen and got 47mpg and was traveling about 70mph on the interstate. I was going to arrive too early to a meeting and decided to slow a bit. On the way back, about 80mph and averaged 45 and bit. I just don't get the complexity of all of this. I'm sticking with my gen 1 and hammer.
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Brian, with today's gas prices and the average mileage the Gen I's get, I figure a dollar every 10 miles I ride. I also ride an 1150RT and a Dyna 96ci Custom. All three get get around 40-42 MPG, so the price per miles on all my bikes are about the same.
The C14 is my favorite ride, and if I could get 50 MPG on it by some mods, it may be worth the modding you are considering. Had a KLR650, and it got 50+MPG consistently, but 70+ MPH was pushing it. That level of mileage on a 14 would be FINE....
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Actually, I had not thought of that and it is a good point. I believe I could increase the highway mileage of the bike 10, maybe 15 or even 18%. I believe a PC V, O2 sensor and auto- tune module are going to cost around $700. I never really considered it but I probably can get that back in some realistic time frame. Thanks for that thought!
Brian
Brian, with today's gas prices and the average mileage the Gen I's get, I figure a dollar every 10 miles I ride. I also ride an 1150RT and a Dyna 96ci Custom. All three get get around 40-42 MPG, so the price per miles on all my bikes are about the same.
The C14 is my favorite ride, and if I could get 50 MPG on it by some mods, it may be worth the modding you are considering. Had a KLR650, and it got 50+MPG consistently, but 70+ MPH was pushing it. That level of mileage on a 14 would be FINE....
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Thanks for that thought!
Brian
Always glad to be of service, sir...tp
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I no longer have my 2011 or the manual, but I do recall that it very specifically says that there is a throttle position and/or RPM where the ECO mode cuts out.
No it doesn't. I read both the 2010 and 2013 manuals and then searched for several terms to make sure I didn't miss anything before I posted that it is not in the manual.
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Actually, I had not thought of that and it is a good point. I believe I could increase the highway mileage of the bike 10, maybe 15 or even 18%. I believe a PC V, O2 sensor and auto- tune module are going to cost around $700. I never really considered it but I probably can get that back in some realistic time frame. Thanks for that thought!
Brian
I understand that the Euro bikes have the closed loop with O2 sensor. Do they get better mileage? Also understand that Guhl can turn that on for our ECU's.
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Sounds like an answer. I read Concours reviews today, and the media types said that the FEAM could increase mileage by up to 25%. Sounds kinda optimistic to me.
Oh yeah, that is way over the top. No way can just turning on the FEAM offer that much savings. 10% I would believe. Even 15% I doubt. And this is based on reading all the posts about the FEAM on many threads. Perhaps they mean using FEAM and *also* driving like a grandmother (by keeping the "ECO" icon on at all times).
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This all sounds very complex.
Everybody is making it complex...lol.
There is an ECO Mode that the rider can turn on and off with a switch.
There's an ECO riding indicator that shows up when riding the bike in an economical manner when in normal mode.
It's simply simple. :o
Rem 8)
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I understand that the Euro bikes have the closed loop with O2 sensor. Do they get better mileage?
That is a good question. I, too, thought I saw something about an O2 sensor on the EU model (and isn't that a great idea... why don't we get it?) But an O2 sensor would tend to imply a real 3-way catalytic convertor too, wouldn't it? And in such cases, it is more likely for emissions control with maybe some other side benefits.
Also understand that Guhl can turn that on for our ECU's.
That I haven't seen. I thought the ECU for the EU model was different. Perhaps it is just programming? If so, there must already been an O2 sensor input into all the ECU's. If he could activate it AND someone could add a sensor, that has a lot of possibilities and makes me wonder if they just throw away some of the maps or use it as a tweak and fallback. It would still be missing the holy grail of proper fuel injection- the air mass sensor.
In any case, it seems at that point, it gets complex enough to just want to go the full auto-tune PC type route.
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That is a good question. I, too, thought I saw something about an O2 sensor on the EU model (and isn't that a great idea... why don't we get it?) But an O2 sensor would tend to imply a real 3-way catalytic convertor too, wouldn't it? And in such cases, it is more likely for emissions control with maybe some other side benefits.
That I haven't seen. I thought the ECU for the EU model was different. Perhaps it is just programming? If so, there must already been an O2 sensor input into all the ECU's. If he could activate it AND someone could add a sensor, that has a lot of possibilities and makes me wonder if they just throw away some of the maps or use it as a tweak and fallback. It would still be missing the holy grail of proper fuel injection- the air mass sensor.
In any case, it seems at that point, it gets complex enough to just want to go the full auto-tune PC type route.
I have no doubt it was for emissions and they found they could save a few bucks by leaving it off the US bikes.
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Everybody is making it complex...lol.
There is an ECO Mode that the rider can turn on and off with a switch.
Technically, there is no "ECO Mode", it is called the "Fuel Economy Assistance Mode" (FEAM) everywhere in the manual.... but which Kawasaki stupidly labeled the "on" indicator as "ECO" just like the ECO riding indicator, just with a different background graphic and font. Whichever engineer did that should be flogged. No wonder some people are confused by it. Couple that with a sprinkle of "Engrish" ( http://www.engrish.com (http://www.engrish.com) ) and it makes it worse.
There's an ECO riding indicator that shows up when riding the bike in an economical manner when in normal mode.
Well, actually, I think the ECO riding indicator also shows up when riding economically with FEAM activated too, doesn't it?
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The Euro bikes actually have two O2 sensors...one for cylinders 1&4, and one for cylinders 2&3.
The stock headers on the North America bikes have two blank/flat/circular areas where the O2 sensor bungs are on the European headers. I welded an O2 bung in the factory Euro location on my US 2010 C14 before I installed the Area-P full system.
And the Euro TPS fuel maps in the FI ECU are actually the same as the North American (Non-California) bikes. I've compared them. So, when not in closed loop operation, they revert back into the same TPS fuel map as the North American bikes.
What I did find different in the Euro FI ECU is they do have different IAP maps, which, at a glance appear to be approximately 10% leaner than ours.
For anybody that gives a poop...lol.
Rem :o
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I have no doubt it was for emissions and they found they could save a few bucks by leaving it off the US bikes.
You are probably right.
But I also [perhaps erroneously] thought that the California emissions standards were at least as strict as Europe and the CA C14 doesn't have a 3-way cat/O2 sensor. Maybe California is less strict on motorcycles? I honestly have no idea.
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Technically, there is no "ECO Mode", it is called the "Fuel Economy Assistance Mode" (FEAM) everywhere in the manual.... but which Kawasaki stupidly labeled the "on" indicator as "ECO" just like the ECO riding indicator, just with a different background graphic and font. Whichever engineer did that should be flogged. No wonder some people are confused by it. Couple that with a sprinkle of "Engrish" ( http://www.engrish.com (http://www.engrish.com) ) and it makes it worse.
Well, actually, I think the ECO riding indicator also shows up when riding economically with FEAM activated too, doesn't it?
Good point Max.
As far as the two ECO Logos on the screen are concerned...I can't really comment...I've personally found no benefit in using the FEAM/ECO mode, and I'm usually in an RPM range where I don't see the ECO riding indicator logo show up...so I rarely ever notice it.
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I'm usually in an RPM range where I don't see the ECO riding indicator logo show up...so I rarely ever notice it.
I suppose I should be embarrassed by how much the ECO riding indicator shows on my dash.... I guess our challenge (assuming we don't care about gas $) should be to see how much we can keep the ECO indicator OFF!!! Let's get Brian to design a circuit to tap into that sucker and display a running average percent of time on/off!!
:)
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I don't really pay a whole lot of attention to MPG...my own or anybody else's online...it's just something I don't really look at. In my car, I watch it like a hawk...lol.
If I fill my tank to the brim...as much as I can get in there without spilling it, and ride until the low fuel warning comes on, I almost always get 180 miles out of that much fuel. Whatever that equates to...lol. I dunno. That is on my 2010 and on the 08 before it. I usually have my cruise set to 80+/- MPH when on the highway.
Not sure how this overall mileage compares to others, but that's my world;).
Rem :o
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It would seem that way but emissions testing / certification is a funny thing. It is not about what the vehicle emits new, it is about what it is likely to emit over its lifespan. And that results in some odd things.
O2 sensors used to close the loop are inherently less reliable than no sensor and an open loop system. I believe the EPA test is for 50K miles. So even if only 1 or 2 sensors fail in that amount of time, it may render the vehicle incapable of passing emissions testing during certification. Put another way, the EPA is effectively choosing a less efficient system that is simply more likely to remain closest to its original state. Overall, it would be better to have 100 bikes on the road with 2 failed O2 sensors for the least emissions but the test is much more of a 'meet a certain level under all circumstances' test. So they make all the bikes less efficient simply because they are more likely to stay that way.
Brian
I have no doubt it was for emissions and they found they could save a few bucks by leaving it off the US bikes.
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What is this 'low fuel warning' you speak of?
:rotflmao:
Brian
<snip>
If I fill my tank to the brim...as much as I can get in there without spilling it, and ride until the low fuel warning comes on....
<snip>
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What is this 'low fuel warning' you speak of?
:rotflmao:
Brian
HAHAHA! Touché!!
I actually have one of the low fuel warning eliminators, but since the guy's website sucks but since my C14 has mostly been parked this year, I haven't had a chance to install it and try it out.
Rem :o
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:rotflmao:
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I shouldn't pick on BDF...he's sensitive you know.
Actually...I was poking fun about another story...that's all...lol.
Rem :o
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One of the best farkles I've put on my bike is Brian's LFW eliminator. I don't know why but the LFW just pisses me off. I just hate that level of stupidity from engineers. I expect it from the rest of the world but not from engineers. The eliminator keeps me sane just a little while longer.
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Hey, you can tell that story here- it is hysterical IMO. Goes something like this:
New guy joins COG and comes into the forum like a tornado. Big, intense posts giving his take on everything and offering to clean up the whole world. Then he gets ahold on the KiPass bypass and wants to know more but the website sucks- except he says that FartyMarty's web site sucks. Which is funny 'cause that web site is mine. So I chime in and agree with new guy and say that Marty's website sucks and he should do a better job. In the meantime, new guy writes an e-mail to Marty on his website (which is really me on my website) that he wants a KiPass bypass but does not want to pay for it- he offered to trade fixing Marty's website instead. By this time, Marty and I are going back on the forum and signing our posts with the other's name (mine are signed Marty, his are signed Brian) and the whole thing is becoming funnier. I wrote as nice an e-mail as I could, suggesting that I did not think the product would do anything he found useful. He wrote back that HE would be the judge of that! Hysterical!
And then there is the story about the gentleman who threatened me because I would not tell him where to put [what value] resistor to "jump" out KiPass so he could start his bike. And that was after two (TWO!) very nice and gentle e-mails explaining KiPass cannot be "jumped" out of the system. Too funny.
Brian
I shouldn't pick on BDF...he's sensitive you know.
Actually...I was poking fun about another story...that's all...lol.
Rem :o
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Thanks for the kind words.
How long are you hoping for on the sanity? I only ask because had I known that, I would have used Teflon insulation on the LFWE you got. <kidding of course> :rotflmao:
As far as engineers go, I knows some of dem guize and they are not to be trusted and they are capable of any level of failure IME. Why next to mathamagicians and penisists, I think injun- ears may have created more disastrous mistakes than any other single group of people. If it were up to me, I would put those folks who paint the lines on the roadways in charge of all design! I mean, you almost never see a mistake in the lines on the roads, right? Dem guize probably coulda' put a bridge across the Tacoma Narrows that would not have ended up IN the Tacoma Narrows in the same year I figures.
Brian
One of the best farkles I've put on my bike is Brian's LFW eliminator. I don't know why but the LFW just pisses me off. I just hate that level of stupidity from engineers. I expect it from the rest of the world but not from engineers. The eliminator keeps me sane just a little while longer.
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Technically, there is no "ECO Mode", it is called the "Fuel Economy Assistance Mode" (FEAM) everywhere in the manual.... but which Kawasaki stupidly labeled the "on" indicator as "ECO" just like the ECO riding indicator, just with a different background graphic and font. Whichever engineer did that should be flogged. No wonder some people are confused by it. Couple that with a sprinkle of "Engrish" ( http://www.engrish.com (http://www.engrish.com) ) and it makes it worse.
Well, actually, I think the ECO riding indicator also shows up when riding economically with FEAM activated too, doesn't it?
Yes, it can.
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Thanks for the kind words.
How long are you hoping for on the sanity? I only ask because had I known that, I would have used Teflon insulation on the LFWE you got. <kidding of course> :rotflmao:
As far as engineers go, I knows some of dem guize and they are not to be trusted and they are capable of any level of failure IME. Why next to mathamagicians and penisists, I think injun- ears may have created more disastrous mistakes than any other single group of people. If it were up to me, I would put those folks who paint the lines on the roadways in charge of all design! I mean, you almost never see a mistake in the lines on the roads, right? Dem guize probably coulda' put a bridge across the Tacoma Narrows that would not have ended up IN the Tacoma Narrows in the same year I figures.
Brian
My sanity comes and goes depending on the next :banghead: thing I run into. Your farkle eliminates one of them. Thank you!
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One of the best farkles I've put on my bike is Brian's LFW eliminator. I don't know why but the LFW just pisses me off. I just hate that level of stupidity from engineers.
It is just as stupid as labeling the economical driving indicator display icon "ECO" and the FEAM display icon "ECO". I guess we should be happy that since the word "Fuel" is in both the low fuel indicator AND in the FEAM name, they don't flash a huge "ECO" when you are low on fuel, too...
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Hey Max...we've been dealing with all the names for the spare fobs all this time...lol. We're all used to this confusion no?...lol.
Spare Fob
Emergency Fob
Passive Fob
Credit Card Fob
Immobilizer Key
RF Fob
More?...lol
And that doesn't even include the main Keyfob...lol.
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...... the LFW just pisses me off. I just hate that level of stupidity from engineers.
You might be blaming engineers for what Kawasaki's lawyers or liability insurer wanted on the bike.
E
As for the CO and ECO...that too may not be the engineers fault
but rather some translator pin head or perhaps two different translators that didn't know what the other was doing.
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You might be blaming engineers for what Kawasaki's lawyers or liability insurer wanted on the bike.
E
As for the CO and ECO...that too may not be the engineers fault
but rather some translator pin head or perhaps two different translators that didn't know what the other was doing.
I understand having a low fuel warning (although this is the only bike I have ridden that had it) but the implementation is stupid and dangerous. First, no need to take over the entire screen and make it flash. That's the dangerous part. It's so pervasive you can't help looking at it (takes your eyes off the road) and to cancel it you have to reach through the handle bars to manipulate 2 buttons (extremely dangerous). At the very least they should have allowed an acknowledgment and make it go away with a simple push of the page button on the front of the left grip. Several times I have caught myself reaching through the bars, not looking at the road trying to cancel it. I know my bad. Who knows, Brian's eliminator may have saved my life.
Sorry, rant over.
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Hey Max...we've been dealing with all the names for the spare fobs all this time...lol. We're all used to this confusion no?...lol.[...]And that doesn't even include the main Keyfob...lol.
Ug!! Don't remind me.... or you will get my whining about how the so-called "credit card" fob has absolutely no resemblance, whatsoever, to a "credit card". It isn't the same size, isn't the same weight, isn't the same function, isn't the same thickness, doesn't fit in a wallet, etc.
The manual calls it a "spare fob" which is less than brilliant, since it isn't necessarily a "spare" and what would you call the full-sized second fob that comes with the Gen 1? Is that a "spare" too? The best term is probably "passive fob", although that is a bit technical. NOWHERE in any manual are the words "credit" or "credit card". I think that ridiculous term started on some misguided marketing materials on the web, although I certainly can't find it anywhere now.
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I vote "passive fob" and "active" fob. Now I'll use it in a sentence: Gen I bikes came with 2 active fobs and Gen II bikes come with 1 active and 1 passive fob.
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I have a Gen I, and find nothing passive about it. Sorry that you Gen II owners have that passive problem.... ;D ;D
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I have a Gen I, and find nothing passive about it. Sorry that you Gen II owners have that passive problem.... ;D ;D
It's that old big fob little fob thing with the slower gen 2 owners.
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It's that old big fob little fob thing with the slower gen 2 owners.
Sounds very troubling to me. Isn't fob confusion an AMA recognized mental problem?
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Agreed- the nomenclature here is a mess. And not through anyone's particular fault, it gets worse 'cause an active fob contains a passive fob inside it. A classic case of the words getting in the way of the meaning.
It probably does not help that all of it was made and named in Japan and then re- named in English (and German, and French, and..... well you know what I mean). This system is probably a naming convention mess in dozens of countries.
Now bashing it with a rock, I think that makes the translation quite well.
Brian
Hey Max...we've been dealing with all the names for the spare fobs all this time...lol. We're all used to this confusion no?...lol.
Spare Fob
Emergency Fob
Passive Fob
Credit Card Fob
Immobilizer Key
RF Fob
More?...lol
And that doesn't even include the main Keyfob...lol.
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Wow, Brian! Does that mean that Gen I owners may have active/passive FOB confusion, too???
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Agreed- the nomenclature here is a mess. And not through anyone's particular fault, it gets worse 'cause an active fob contains a passive fob inside it. A classic case of the words getting in the way of the meaning.
naaaah, let's blame Maxtog ;)
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Let's not... ;)
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I'm waiting for Steve to chime in here and tell us how much power the FOB has regardless of passive or active.