Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: Daggett on July 14, 2012, 08:23:17 AM
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Guys,
I recently sold a 2002 Concours to a guy and he was driving it around the area he lived and said there was a loud pop, the engine died, and they noticed oil leaking. He said there was some oil on the right side of the tire and it looked like there was a trail of oil.
The bike had 49k miles on it, never gave me a problem, other than a vacuum leak from a missing carb plug, and he had driven it about 200 miles after buying it from me when it failed. He parked it for the night, went back the next morning, and it would start but he said it sounded like a chain or something rattling in the motor and he shut it off immediately. Need some help in pointing this guy in some kind of direction.
i feel very bad for him, but I never had a sniff of a problem with the bike, and I got it from a dealership used, so it was serviced before i bought it.
Any assistance would be apprectiated.
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Sounds like the cam chain tensioner let go and now the chain is loose making the noise. i dont know about the oil tho. :-\
my tensioner let go on my bike at 40mph and it poped loud, i thought the engine blew, i was lucky there was no damage cause im sure the possibility is there, my bike didn't die tho but i thought it was befor i got home.
i could be totaly wrong here so wait for more answers but you could check the tensioner its not hard to do.
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Or maybe a bad case of hydrolock!
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hydrolock cant happen when the engine is running can it? :-\ from post i seen on here it should not
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where is the oil coming from??
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hydrolock cant happen when the engine is running can it? :-\ from post i seen on here it should not
Reread you post. Shouldn't hydrolock while running. Nice of you to help him out but you are not responsible. Sometimes CRAP HAPPENS!!!
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What ever you do - don't feel responsible! It's entirely possible that this guy was yahooing around and over revved it and it flew apart. If you knew it was in good condition and were not aware of any problems it's caveat emptor.
I once sold a 250 cc dirt bike to a guy, I had rebuilt the engine and had about 4 hrs on it so I knew it was good. He called me 2 hrs after he picked it up and said it just stopped. I felt bad for the guy and bought it back (hadn't had time to go to the bank yet!)
When I pulled it apart the rod was broken and blue. He either didn't get the mix right or he over revved it, or both.
Cost me several hundred in parts and gaskets to get it running again.
Then I rode it for another 4 hrs and never had a problem.
GET THIS, the next guy that bought it calls me 3 months after he bought it to say that the front forks weren't original, the back wheel wasn't original and the seat had been recovered, HE WANTED HIS MONEY BACK. Are you kidding me??? It was a 25 year old dirt bike!!!! What's going to be original????
My point in these stories?
If you looked after it and sold it in good faith, and he broke it.....tough luck for him. Don't feel bad because there's a lot of people out there who are looking for someone gullable to pay for their mistakes.
OK rant is over. Whew, I needed that, now I gotta go play halo and kill something.
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Reread you post. Shouldn't hydrolock while running. Nice of you to help him out but you are not responsible. Sometimes CRAP HAPPENS!!!
Of corse i'm not responsible, I Am just Curious as to what happen.
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where is the oil coming from??
I think this is the key issue now. Find out where the oil is coming from and that will determine if its fatal or not.
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I would have the guy take it to a shop and let someone else check it out. Being in close proximity to someone that may be a little hacked off is rarely a good thing. Unless you know the guy, best to let someone else brake the news to him. You just never know how people will react.
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If there is an oil trail, HE probably has a problem. If no oil trail, then it may be the cam chain tensioner. It almost sounds the same as a blown engine, just quieter. Mine thru a rod last month at 47k miles. It had a hydrolock prior to me getting it and one rod (#3) was about .023" shorter each and every time I measured it (every valve adjust). It caught up to me in the middle of NC at 85mph. I finally got to see it good yesterday. The end cap on #3 must be laying in the pan still. There is a hole big enough to put your hand in. There wasn't as much oil sprayed out as I thought there would be. I still drained about 2.5 quarts out of it.
Mine just made a loud growl and then a pop. It would still run it I tried to start it. At least for a short time.
On any vehicle I have ever sold, I always write a "Bill of Sale" and have the buyer sign and initial that it is being sold in "AS-IS" condition with no warrenty or gaurantee given or implied. List the VIN number, make, year, model, etc. I'll make them a copy if they want, but I keep the original. I've had friends wind up having to give money back because of someone elses stupidity when they were called to court. You can find generic ones on the web to print out.
Oh yeah, never sell to family. You can give it, but don't sell it.
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Good thoughts there. I hate selling stuff because of things like that.
On any vehicle I have ever sold, I always write a "Bill of Sale" and have the buyer sign and initial that it is being sold in "AS-IS" condition with no warrenty or gaurantee given or implied. List the VIN number, make, year, model, etc. I'll make them a copy if they want, but I keep the original. I've had friends wind up having to give money back because of someone elses stupidity when they were called to court. You can find generic ones on the web to print out.
Oh yeah, never sell to family. You can give it, but don't sell it.
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Thanks for all the input guys. It was a total engine failure. Broken connecting rod blew chunk out of the front of the engine. I found him a 2005 motor for 500 dollars, that should mount up to the 2002 frame, shouldn't it?
I am not sure what caused the rod to break, it made no noise whatsoever.
If the 2005 motor wont work, if someone could let me know I'd appreciate it.
Thanks again.
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Thanks for all the input guys. It was a total engine failure. Broken connecting rod blew chunk out of the front of the engine. I found him a 2005 motor for 500 dollars, that should mount up to the 2002 frame, shouldn't it?
I am not sure what caused the rod to break, it made no noise whatsoever.
If the 2005 motor wont work, if someone could let me know I'd appreciate it.
Thanks again.
That engine will work just fine. My guess the engine was hydolocked or out of oil.
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That engine will work just fine. My guess the engine was hydolocked or out of oil.
Most likely hydro locked is right.
Dont do it again to the new motor. Fix it.
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How do i prevent Hydrolock, I have never heard of it before. Vapor lock yes, Hydrolock no. Is this a carb issue or something totally different. I looked on here for more info on it but everything it found was in this post.
Never mind, I found a couple links on the forum that seem to point to the carbs filling the cylinders with fuel and causing a bent rod, either because of carb or petcock failure??? How can this happen when the bike is being ridden at the time of the failure though. Was the rod bent at some previous point and failed later on?
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How do i prevent Hydrolock, I have never heard of it before. Vapor lock yes, Hydrolock no. Is this a carb issue or something totally different. I looked on here for more info on it but everything it found was in this post.
Never mind, I found a couple links on the forum that seem to point to the carbs filling the cylinders with fuel and causing a bent rod, either because of carb or petcock failure??? How can this happen when the bike is being ridden at the time of the failure though. Was the rod bent at some previous point and failed later on?
If the damage was caused by Hydro-lock then yes the damage was already there. There are some instances where people have had hydro and didnt even know it.
The only prevention is to have overflow tubes installed in the carbs. Steve in Sunny Florida is your on stop shop. Do a search for overflow tubes
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The only prevention is to have overflow tubes installed in the carbs. Steve in Sunny Florida is your on stop shop.
Prevention is too strong a statement. If you've got a full on gasoline jail break through a stuck petcock and float, I'd bet (aka I haven't tried it) it's still gonna come out the air box. BTDT. For slow leaks, sure. At least *if* you check the overflow's hose it might give some advance warning something is amiss.
The tubes don't mean you shouldn't check the petcock and float levels at every oil change. It's quick and easily done.
The tubes aren't a fetish for hydrolock prevention. Tho' as fetishes go, it'd be a useful but boring one ;)
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Prevention is too strong a statement. If you've got a full on gasoline jail break through a stuck petcock and float, I'd bet (aka I haven't tried it) it's still gonna come out the air box. BTDT. For slow leaks, sure. At least *if* you check the overflow's hose it might give some advance warning something is amiss.
The tubes don't mean you shouldn't check the petcock and float levels at every oil change. It's quick and easily done.
The tubes aren't a fetish for hydrolock prevention. Tho' as fetishes go, it'd be a useful but boring one ;)
Prevention is right between the ears and legs; your brain and a manual petcock!
But SISF's Overflow Tubes are a boon to the Concours owners nevertheless.
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I don't say the tubes aren't useful. Just that they aren't a fix or prevention of the root problem. IMO some folks, NOT SiSF, tend to over sell what they do. What I see as other potential problems I've mentioned before and won't bore everyone again. If you wanna know, go use the Search button.
I think I'd have to fix the problem between my ears before trying to use a manual petcock, and that's very expensive. Even the OE petcock is more reliable than *me* remembering to turn a manual one off. <sigh>
<lots of edits after posting and re-reading to make sure it says more precisely what I mean>
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I don't say the tubes aren't useful. Just that it's not a fix for the root problem. Some folks, NOT SiSF, IMO tend to over sell what they do. What I see as other potential problems I've mentioned before and won't bore everyone again...
I think I'd have to fix the problem between my ears before trying to use it for your fix. Even the OE petcock is more reliable than *me* remembering to turn a manual one off. <sigh>
Not to worry I understand EXACTLY where you be coming from...... :deadhorse:
As for myself I tend to forget that most people are not like me; in my profession I'm paid to not forget stuff like valves and switches etc.... :stirpot:
Now dang it what was I talking about? I can't seem to remember! :hitfan:
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Overflow tubes are the ONLY prevention for hydro lock. Not manual pet cocks and not electronic valves.
Those devices make it more likely that you will hydro lock than less.
I know this because I had those (and every other option/feature discussed here) and I did have a hydrock. I was just lucky I did not bend a rod. That is when I put the fuel system back to stock and installed over flow tubes. Now there is no chance of hydro locking ever.
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OK let me get this straight. Mr Dagget sells a perfectly good motorbike to X. X comes back with a blown engine and we now blame hydrolock!?!? BS.
You owe him nothing.
:deadhorse: Stop blaming H-lock for everything. This dam subject is mentioned way too much. :deadhorse:
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Overflow tubes are the ONLY prevention for hydro lock. Not manual pet cocks and not electronic valves.
Those devices make it more likely that you will hydro lock than less.
I know this because I had those (and every other option/feature discussed here) and I did have a hydrock. I was just lucky I did not bend a rod. That is when I put the fuel system back to stock and installed over flow tubes. Now there is no chance of hydro locking ever.
Just because your opinions don't match mine I don't argue them as false............. ::)
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OK let me get this straight. Mr Dagget sells a perfectly good motorbike to X. X comes back with a blown engine and we now blame hydrolock!?!? BS.
You owe him nothing.
:deadhorse: Stop blaming H-lock for everything. This dam subject is mentioned way too much. :deadhorse:
:popcorn: Okay I am all ears. I dont believe anyone here said "by the grace of God it's Hydrolocked" How many C-10's have you heard of that just up and throw a rod? In your expert opinion why did the bike grenade?
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:popcorn: Okay I am all ears. I dont believe anyone here said "by the grace of God it's Hydrolocked" How many C-10's have you heard of that just up and throw a rod? In your expert opinion why did the bike grenade?
How did you know I was an expert?
It obviously grenaded when the rod blew out the case. If it stayed in there everything would be OK. :)
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Just because your opinions don't match mine I don't argue them as false............. ::)
Sorry Tony, That is not my intention. I am just bored at work and I am trying to stir up some trouble in the form of well.. trouble.. :P
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Well,
I told the fellow I would put an engine in for him. He's a really nice fellow and his son bought this thing to ride back and forth to his lady friend from college and who am I to stand between a man and his stuff. He found one for 500. and it is near me so I had him bring the bike back to me and I will swap them out for him. I hope I haven't bitten off more than I could chew. I have replaced bike motors before, but never one with a drive shaft. If it is like a car, then I'm in like Flint, otherwise, I may be a while.
Thanks for the advice, if there is anything I should know about changing out this powerplant, feel free to overwhelm me with data. I searched for motor replacement and did not find anything. I'm assuming that is because they never fail. I hope it's not because they are such a pain in the ass that it's impossible for a shade tree mech. to do.
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Overflow tubes are the ONLY prevention for hydro lock. Not manual pet cocks and not electronic valves.
Those devices make it more likely that you will hydro lock than less.
I know this because I had those (and every other option/feature discussed here) and I did have a hydrock. I was just lucky I did not bend a rod. That is when I put the fuel system back to stock and installed over flow tubes. Now there is no chance of hydro locking ever.
What happens if your overflow tubes plug up? Then what? " A Black and yellow mud dauber nest in the pitot tubes is believed to have brought down Birgenair Flight 301." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgenair_Flight_301 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgenair_Flight_301)
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Sorry Tony, That is not my intention. I am just bored at work and I am trying to stir up some trouble in the form of well.. trouble.. :P
Giggle-Laugh-Snort
Got to admit I appreciate your honesty....
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What happens if your overflow tubes plug up? Then what? " A Black and yellow mud dauber nest in the pitot tubes is believed to have brought down Birgenair Flight 301." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgenair_Flight_301 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgenair_Flight_301)
Steve provides drain tubes and a manifold to connect the tubes to the drain/overflow nipples. Not saying it can't happen, but it's unlikely a wasp would nest in a tube on a regularly (if you're among the lucky ones) ridden bike. Also, checking the system periodically, like at oil change time as previously mentioned, will help to insure all is right in the Connie world. Not sure, but wouldn't gasoline eat its way through a mud block? The tubes themselves will hold a small volume of gas as well, granted, not a full tanks worth...
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:popcorn: Okay I am all ears. I dont believe anyone here said "by the grace of God it's Hydrolocked" How many C-10's have you heard of that just up and throw a rod? In your expert opinion why did the bike grenade?
That's an easy one almost any that has ever been dropped by the owner while still running and continued to run for a short but undetermined amount of time stand a very good chance of oil starvation to which sometime later down the road the engine may "just up and throw a rod"....
Want a few more? ;)
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Ehhhhhhhh, ummmmmmmmmmmmmm, ain't too likely. Your bike would be in neutral (most likely) and under virtually no load. Remember the old ZX-1100 rod droppers? Lots of wheelies at high rpm going fast for considerable distances led to oil starvation as it left the pick-up tube uncovered and dry and eventual journal scoring ensued. But it did take a while. I would be more worried about a meteor conking me on the head.
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Well,
I told the fellow I would put an engine in for him. He's a really nice fellow and his son bought this thing to ride back and forth to his lady friend from college and who am I to stand between a man and his stuff. He found one for 500. and it is near me so I had him bring the bike back to me and I will swap them out for him. I hope I haven't bitten off more than I could chew. I have replaced bike motors before, but never one with a drive shaft. If it is like a car, then I'm in like Flint, otherwise, I may be a while.
Thanks for the advice, if there is anything I should know about changing out this powerplant, feel free to overwhelm me with data. I searched for motor replacement and did not find anything. I'm assuming that is because they never fail. I hope it's not because they are such a pain in the ass that it's impossible for a shade tree mech. to do.
Well now you've done it! You've practically assumed responsibility for the new engine running good too! Ohhhhhhhhh Nooooooooooooooo! :yikes:
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I would not get involved with the engine swap. Maybe buy him the engine and step away if you are worried about a court case. He may find more things not to his liking and tell you to fix them to.
Here's what mine did. Does yours look familiar? Swapping an engine is time consuming, especially when you want to go thru and service everything else while doing it like I do. The first thing I did was finally bobbed the fender on this one. Then I pulled all the plastics off and washed them. Then drained the oil and flushed all the coolant out. The list goes on from here. You will want an assistant (or 3) when moving the engine around and removing or installing one.
You'll love that little pin in the drive shaft. I had to unbolt the dog bones on the shock and loosen the swing arm bearings for it to come loose. I think it just barely tweaks on the output spine and wants to fight. I hope to drop the blown motor tonight - its just being held in with 4 screw drivers now. I just need to find a willing neighbor or 2. I have beer if anyone is interested.
I would think mine was not oil starved, but i'm not sure. I drained over 2.5 quarts out. I thought it would have been less. The oil was just changed 3 weeks earlier with Hondaline 10w40 (i've used this in all my bikes forever except for when Golden Specrto was on sale). It was the third rod as I suspected in the picture. The rod cap must be laying in the pan. Not sure how a hydro-lock would actually impact the rod bolt or rod bearing though because that seems to be what let go. Thoughts anyone?
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That's an easy one almost any that has ever been dropped by the owner while still running and continued to run for a short but undetermined amount of time stand a very good chance of oil starvation to which sometime later down the road the engine may "just up and throw a rod"....
Want a few more? ;)
No Sir that should just about quench my thirst for knowledge. I just hadnt heard of many connies busting rods. I think RFH was the first I had every heard. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
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Ahhh, it's the good old #3 failure.
Happened to a friend (Jesal).
Details and pics are here http://gtr1000.com/graphics/gearbox/jesal.htm (http://gtr1000.com/graphics/gearbox/jesal.htm)
The long and short of it is that the oilway to the big end bearing gets blocked, the bearing runs dry and shortly thereafter the motor converts itself to a triple with a total loss oil system. ;D
After seeing this I run Wynns Engine Flush at every other oil change now.
What is funny is that I decided to see if it would start like this.
It did, it even idled but much over 1500rpm the vibes were so bad ya couldn't hold the throttle.
Yours is the 3rd C10 motor I have heard of that died like this.
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Ahhh, it's the good old #3 failure.
Yes there is indeed a weak point on this design of motor; I've read of the same with the ZRX, ZZR and ZX motor too.
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I would not get involved with the engine swap. Maybe buy him the engine and step away if you are worried about a court case. He may find more things not to his liking and tell you to fix them to.
Here's what mine did. Does yours look familiar? Swapping an engine is time consuming, especially when you want to go thru and service everything else while doing it like I do. The first thing I did was finally bobbed the fender on this one. Then I pulled all the plastics off and washed them. Then drained the oil and flushed all the coolant out. The list goes on from here. You will want an assistant (or 3) when moving the engine around and removing or installing one.
You'll love that little pin in the drive shaft. I had to unbolt the dog bones on the shock and loosen the swing arm bearings for it to come loose. I think it just barely tweaks on the output spine and wants to fight. I hope to drop the blown motor tonight - its just being held in with 4 screw drivers now. I just need to find a willing neighbor or 2. I have beer if anyone is interested.
I would think mine was not oil starved, but i'm not sure. I drained over 2.5 quarts out. I thought it would have been less. The oil was just changed 3 weeks earlier with Hondaline 10w40 (i've used this in all my bikes forever except for when Golden Specrto was on sale). It was the third rod as I suspected in the picture. The rod cap must be laying in the pan. Not sure how a hydro-lock would actually impact the rod bolt or rod bearing though because that seems to be what let go. Thoughts anyone?
Heck, get a new rod and bearing and pop it on there and then fill the hole up with JB Weld. Good as new! As soon as you give it back to him, move!
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Heck, get a new rod and bearing and pop it on there and then fill the hole up with JB Weld. Good as new! As soon as you give it back to him, move!
You could use hardened shoe leather as a rod bearing too..... :o
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You could use hardened shoe leather as a rod bearing too..... :o
Now you're showing your age there Tony! ;D I wonder if they teach that method in any of the engine shop classes anymore? I wonder how many of the "youngsters" here on the forum know anything about this repair procedure?
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Now you're showing your age there Tony! ;D I wonder if they teach that method in any of the engine shop classes anymore? I wonder how many of the "youngsters" here on the forum know anything about this repair procedure?
Whoops...... ;)
I wonder if they still toss charged caps at the wall to see if you can get them to arc out or has that right of passage been forgotten in shop class too?
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Whoops...... ;) I wonder if they still toss charged caps at the wall to see if you can get them to arc out or has that right of passage been forgotten in shop class too?
At least they tossed them against the wall for you, our instructors would charge them up & leave them on the desk & wait to see who would be the 1st idiot student to try & move it out of the way. ::)
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At least they tossed them against the wall for you, our instructors would charge them up & leave them on the desk & wait to see who would be the 1st idiot student to try & move it out of the way. ::)
Wrap some wire around them properly, and toss them to someone instead.
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Wrap some wire around them properly, and toss them to someone instead.
+1 in the service we would slip them down inside someones boot. Always a good laugh.
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+1 in the service we would slip them down inside someones boot. Always a good laugh.
:offtopic: Yeah. I've wondered what would happen if you used one of those 1 Farad capacitors (http://www.amazon.com/Raptor-C1-0FM-Farad-Capacitor-Digital/dp/B0009DTJBO) that are used for car amplifiers. :yikes:
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Well,
I told the fellow I would put an engine in for him. He's a really nice fellow and his son bought this thing to ride back and forth to his lady friend from college and who am I to stand between a man and his stuff. He found one for 500. and it is near me so I had him bring the bike back to me and I will swap them out for him. I hope I haven't bitten off more than I could chew. I have replaced bike motors before, but never one with a drive shaft. If it is like a car, then I'm in like Flint, otherwise, I may be a while.
Thanks for the advice, if there is anything I should know about changing out this powerplant, feel free to overwhelm me with data. I searched for motor replacement and did not find anything. I'm assuming that is because they never fail. I hope it's not because they are such a pain in the ass that it's impossible for a shade tree mech. to do.
YOU AREN"T LISTENING!!!
Once you put a wrench to that bike you are responsible for it. WALK AWAY!
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At least they tossed them against the wall for you, our instructors would charge them up & leave them on the desk & wait to see who would be the 1st idiot student to try & move it out of the way. ::)
:thumbs: :thumbs: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
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Yes there is indeed a weak point on this design of motor; I've read of the same with the ZRX, ZZR and ZX motor too.
So, I walk into the shop to the parts counter to pick up a new upper hose to complete the engine swap. The shop foreman happened to be up there too. So I told him "Hey Shane, I threw a rod in my connie a few weeks ago." He said "Number three"? I said "Yep". Then he told me its what they see when most kawi's throw a rod. Bad oiling.
As far as I am concerned my engine was clean inside - at least no sludge. Nice golden aluminum color. Although when I got the bike the valve cover gasket had silicone seal on it along with the timing cover. Perhaps a chunk was lodged somewhere.
So all you engine guru's out there - is there a way to improve/prevent this? Enlarge a galley, change to a different oil pump, don't run at 85-90mph for almost an hour and a half? I think it was like 5,500rpm? Is it even worth being concerned about it?
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So, I walk into the shop to the parts counter to pick up a new upper hose to complete the engine swap. The shop foreman happened to be up there too. So I told him "Hey Shane, I threw a rod in my connie a few weeks ago." He said "Number three"? I said "Yep". Then he told me its what they see when most kawi's throw a rod. Bad oiling.
As far as I am concerned my engine was clean inside - at least no sludge. Nice golden aluminum color. Although when I got the bike the valve cover gasket had silicone seal on it along with the timing cover. Perhaps a chunk was lodged somewhere.
So all you engine guru's out there - is there a way to improve/prevent this? Enlarge a galley, change to a different oil pump, don't run at 85-90mph for almost an hour and a half? I think it was like 5,500rpm? Is it even worth being concerned about it?
No, it isn't. I cruise at 85-90mph when I ride out West. If you watch your oil level constantly and change it regularly and don't uncover the oil pick-up tube you should be fine. With this Kaw design Wheelies will uncover the tube even if the crankcase is full. Don't do wheelies! You want to be 100% safe from this event? Buy a Honda.
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No, it isn't. I cruise at 85-90mph when I ride out West. If you watch your oil level constantly and change it regularly and don't uncover the oil pick-up tube you should be fine. With this Kaw design Wheelies will uncover the tube even if the crankcase is full. Don't do wheelies! You want to be 100% safe from this event? Buy a Honda.
If you have an '06' like mine, don't brake too hard either or it will lose oil pressure. I guess I don't need to worry about upgrading the brakes cuz I can't use em that hard anyway. Mark
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If you have an '06' like mine, don't brake too hard either or it will lose oil pressure. I guess I don't need to worry about upgrading the brakes cuz I can't use em that hard anyway. Mark
Sounds more like you have a loose connection on the Oil pressure sensor.
When you brake hard the Oil pressure light comes on?
The Oil Pressure sensor is lower left on the motor, near the neutral light switch.
The connection sometimes gets crudded up or the wire gets displaced.
No way oil pressure will change with braking unless there is something seriously wrong with oil pump.
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Sounds more like you have a loose connection on the Oil pressure sensor.
When you brake hard the Oil pressure light comes on?
The Oil Pressure sensor is lower left on the motor, near the neutral light switch.
The connection sometimes gets crudded up or the wire gets displaced.
No way oil pressure will change with braking unless there is something seriously wrong with oil pump.
Not a loose connection. This is a known problem for some 06 model year bikes. It is a problem with the oil pump and is being investigated by a cog member now. Hard braking and oil changes will sometimes lead to the oil light staying on as the pump can't reestablish pressure. It either airlocks or cavitates. It can be a PIA or worse... Mark
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Not a loose connection. This is a known problem for some 06 model year bikes. It is a problem with the oil pump and is being investigated by a cog member now. Hard braking and oil changes will sometimes lead to the oil light staying on as the pump can't reestablish pressure. It either airlocks or cavitates. It can be a PIA or worse... Mark
That's not good. Why did they change it? The Oil Pump was fine from 86-05.
Perhaps they were trying to "fix" the #3 big end oiling issue?
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That's not good. Why did they change it? The Oil Pump was fine from 86-05.
Perhaps they were trying to "fix" the #3 big end oiling issue?
They didn't change anything on the pump design. One of the idea's from some members is maybe using out of spec parts for the last of the model build. One of the guys here is currently investigating and will post his results soon. Evidently switching out to an earlier year pump solves the problem. Mark
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DONE, easiest motor I have ever changed. Done in about 4 hours with my son in law helping. Guy took it to a mechanic afterward, he cleaned the carbs, and now his kid has a good running Concours again. I dont regret telling him I would put the motor in, not in the least. Even though it was an unforseeable problem I think it was the right thing to do. Maybe if more people actually help people out when they have a problem, there wont be as many lawsuits and confrontations. The guy was not mechanically inclined and would have probably spent another 500 to 1000 dollars, maybe more, depending on who he had to hire to put the replacement motor in for him. People on these types of forums offer help, assistance, and guidance at the drop of a hat but in a situation like this a lot of you were telling me to cut bait and run. Sorry, I dont see it that way. I'm conservative by nature but was raised in a manner that you back up your choices and words with actions befitting an honest man. The guy did tell me when he picked up the bike that he thought I went above and beyond what he would have expected of someone selling a used bike so I'm happy with the outcome.
Anyhow, thanks for the tips and advice, I was listening, but that motor came out easy and went in easy. The hardest problem was, like one fellow said, getting that little pin to engage. Other than that, no worries.
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You did good, be proud. :thumbs:
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DONE, easiest motor I have ever changed. Done in about 4 hours with my son in law helping. Guy took it to a mechanic afterward, he cleaned the carbs, and now his kid has a good running Concours again. I dont regret telling him I would put the motor in, not in the least. Even though it was an unforseeable problem I think it was the right thing to do. Maybe if more people actually help people out when they have a problem, there wont be as many lawsuits and confrontations. The guy was not mechanically inclined and would have probably spent another 500 to 1000 dollars, maybe more, depending on who he had to hire to put the replacement motor in for him. People on these types of forums offer help, assistance, and guidance at the drop of a hat but in a situation like this a lot of you were telling me to cut bait and run. Sorry, I dont see it that way. I'm conservative by nature but was raised in a manner that you back up your choices and words with actions befitting an honest man. The guy did tell me when he picked up the bike that he thought I went above and beyond what he would have expected of someone selling a used bike so I'm happy with the outcome.
Anyhow, thanks for the tips and advice, I was listening, but that motor came out easy and went in easy. The hardest problem was, like one fellow said, getting that little pin to engage. Other than that, no worries.
Daggett, I would trust you with anything I have, with two exceptions, my wife and my Connie. My wife is young and my Connie is old and it would easy to throw a Rod in either one of them. :o
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Daggett, I would trust you with anything I have, with two exceptions, my wife and my Connie. My wife is young and my Connie is old and it would easy to throw a Rod in either one of them. :o
:o :rotflmao: :feedback: :rotflmao:
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Well done Daggett!
Nice to see someone really stands up to be counted - a lot of guys would have just said not my problem. I agree with your sentiments about doing the right thing and litigation.
You are a real stand up guy!
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The oil starvation on no.3 journal bearing has been around a long time.
All the motors that are derived from the GPZ900 have this issue upto the ZRX1200 and ZZR1200 - which were modified to avoid this.
I found this some time ago on BigBikeworld forum -
It is my opinion the main reason these engine die is oil starvation, the dreaded #3 rod bearing failure. For 15 years I used a ZX10 in a race car and although it was a dry sump system there were many modification made to give it both HP and reliability. My focus was improving the oil system, primarily increasing volume and pressure. Pressure was easy, just put a shim in the relief valve and/or use the racing relief valve. Volume was not so easy.
Below are pictures of a few of the mods made to improve volume. Over time I’ll add to this; I’m getting rid of all my ZX10/11 engine parts since I have been running a 04/05ZX10R for the last 4 years and as the stuff leaves my shop I keep finding things and I’ll take more pictures.
In another post my brother talked about a crankshaft mod and I will take pictures of the crank and post them as well.
The pump in a ZX10/ZX11 puts out a lot more oil than reaches the bearings, all the oil must pass through the filter bolt. The bolt on the right not only has the hole elongated but the inner diameter has been drilled and the cross sectional area is approximately 50% more, and the bolt has been shortened 1/8in because it blocks the passage if left full length. If you look carefully at the bolt on the left you will see some flashing in the hole from the drilling operation, of course the bolt must be carefully cleaned and deburred.
The oil pump is bolted onto an aluminum bracket which has cast holes; when holes are cast they have what is called draft so the hole at the outboard end is much larger than inside; I put the bracket in a drill press and drill these holes to the max size for their full length. Also there are many areas in the passages that can be rounded and opened up to improve flow and less restrictions.
The oil pump interface to the pump bracket is sealed with an o-ring with a “D” cross section. When this o-ring is installed and the bolts torqued the o-ring squishes into the passage thus reducing the passage cross section and disrupting the flow. I have taken an old pump and a bracket sawed them up and drilled holes allowing access to the installed o-rings, then I use an exacto knife to cut the o-ring back to the full diameter of the passage. The picture with o-ring clamped is a little blurred but the dia of the oil passage is 0.470in and with the o-ring it is just under 0.400in
The pump is also ported to improve volume output; the picture on the left shows 2 scribe marks in each chamber, on the left the area in red can be removed which increases volume output.
The next picture is the oil hole in the main bearing cap. On the left is the stock cap and the left one with the hole opened up. Following is the bearing in the cap, I use a dremel tool with a small ball cutter through an old bearing to remove the material blocking the passage. Under the bearing shell I use the same tool to open up the passage between the bearing holes.
The next picture is the case, unfortunately I have no pictures of the ported case. In the area noted the corners are rounded, fluid hates 90 deg sharp corners.
Between the pan and case is a tube which feeds the main cap and another oil gallery. We fabricate a new tube from 3/8 dia steel brake line which is a larger dia than the stock part.
Rod side clearance on stock rods is 0.009in (if I recall correctly) and Carrillo recommends 0.013in (again if I recall correctly). This increased side clearance is to increase flow for cooling, Even on stock rods I ran the Carrillo numbers.
At the bottom are pictures of the ZX10 in the car. Look closely at the right side picture and you can see a line from the right front corner of the head; this line is a gravity oil return to the dry sump tank. In long left hand turns at 2g’s even with a dry sump enough oil is pumped and will stay in head to run a 6 quart system dry. There is enough force to push the oil back to the tank, before installing this fix the dry sump system required 8 quarts of oil, an additional 4# to eat up HP not to mention the HP loss of the valve train fighting all the oil trapped in the head.
Again looking closely at the installed engine and you can see the wires are not stock. That is Moroso spiral carbon core wire in a Chrysler Hemi spark plug connector with a stock Kawi boot and the other end is attached to Accel coils. This was required to keep the ignition noise with stock wire from interfering with the data acquisition.
The next picture is a broken crank. This engine ran out of oil due to a line failure in the dry sump system. The driver failed to notice the BIG glowing red light. Data acquisition reveled this engine was at zero oil pressure at 12k for a very long time in several gears before finally calling it quits. Those are Carrillo rods.
The last picture is the ZX10R being installed that replaced the ZX10, and sadly I’m just finishing chassis modification to install a GSXR which will replace the ZX10R. My best ZX10R makes 185HP a similarly modified GSXR makes 200HP.
Someone has asked me about the number of engine failures I have experienced. Well certainly more that most bike riders since it was used highly modified in a race car. In my early days 3 for the #3 rod on my engines, and one #3 on a sponsored engine I ran; one broken stock rod just below the wrist pin at maybe 4k rpm on a cool off lap after the checkered flag, Carrillo said that was a very common failure and I personally never used a stock rod engine again; one dropped valve, this one was caused by worn valve keepers, after this one I began looking at the keepers under magnification and found many were worn and went in the trash.
I ran a lot of Mega Cycle cams and lost lots of rockers until I started using nitrated rockers that a friend made in his garage.
There was the odd things that would go wrong from time to time but were not catastrophic.
We are restricted to 1L engines, made up from any source more or less. I ran a 900 crank, ZX11 high compression pistons, a milled and ported ZX10 head with ZX11 valves, the cylinders had to be notched at the top to clear the valves. The head was the work of Craig Hansen in Chico CA and found the ZX10 head with ZX11 valves to be superior to the ZX11 head. Oh and the crank was lightened by 8#, you can see a picture of that in my parts for sale ad. I broke one transmission and that was when I was using an early version of a speed shifter. The clutch had and extra disk and was made up using the stock Kawasaki friction disks and the stock metal disks from a 1000rr. I’m using a similar extra disk clutch in my ZX10R using stock Kawasaki parts. BTW I never found a out of speck used friction disk from the old ZX10, but the new ZX10R friction disks have cost me an engine, they do not seem to hold up in the race car.
This model ZX10 is my favorite, easy to work on, but limited to about 160HP less than a stock new ZX10R, or R1 or GSXR so that is why I moved on.
David
Unfortunately, it wont let me copy the pictures across.