A thread about nothing at all....

[B.D.F.]

Yeah, I guess there is that 'left turn'; a state truly independent from the US Federal 'reach' would deny that person his / her right to Federal oversight and what the law calls remedies (correction(s) put in place through a court's intervention and ruling). So perhaps that is an impediment but not the or even a major one IMO. The far bigger problems would be the mechanics of having been intertwined so deeply and so dependent on the Fed. for so much. All of which a few of the really large states could take over and manage on their own, mostly but at a serious economic cost to that (those) states.

One really odd twist is the problem of border control, which is now handled (for better or worse) by the Federal gov't. Now some states, such as CA, actually get in the way somewhat in enforcing border control or more accurately, immigration control. But if such states were actually independent countries, they would then not only be responsible for their own are regarding immigration control and all that goes with it but would further be saddled with securing a border WITH the US of A itself! Ironic, amusing and I think a real problem, CA's border is 1,000 miles long on the eastern side alone, then a southern CA / Mexico border as well as a northern border with the US also.

Of course California immigration control would be a bit different I think..... I, for example, would probably be required to accompany a Mexican national to enter CA 'the country'.

    and 

But on any practical, foreseeable level, no, states seceding from the Union is not going to happen. But the other issue of just how far states can go in independent behavior is rising pretty sharply and many of us are quite interested in where that goes.

Brian

Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution states:  "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

By withdrawing from the Union, a state would effectively be denying someone who is a citizen of the United States their rights except by due process.  The key there is "due process" and in this case, the state would need to find a LEGALLY RECOGNIZED way to withdraw.  This would either be some kind of legislation passed in Congress or an Amendment to the Constitution.  Anything less will ensure a civil war and no state will win such a war.

https://www.quora.com/Can-a-US-state-secede-from-the-Union

[mikeyw64]

here's a random one for you  that you probably hadn't thought about

The Union Jack/Flag represents the UK which is made up of England, Scotland, Wales & (Northern Ireland) and although it has the St Georges Cross for England, St Andrews cross for Scotland and St Patricks cross for Ireland on it my home country of Wales is not represented.

This is because at the time of Union with Scotland & later Ireland Wales was already incorporated (via subjugation) as part of the Kingdom of England.

It's also why we have a Prince of Wales as a symbol of the Crowns "power" over the Welsh but not a Prince of Scotland or a Prince of Ireland.


Sidebar, there is one US State has a foreign flag represented on it's State flag.

[gPink]

I'm all for cutting Hawaii loose.

[VirginiaJim]

Guys, this discussion is all well and good but it ought to be it's own thread in Open.  Someone please start it and continue on.

[VirginiaJim]

We kept our 4 year old granddaughter yesterday evening for a few hours and decided to get pizza for dinner.  Made a comment about buying it.   She came back with 'We don't buy pizza, we order it.'.  In fact she went to the front door to open it for the pizza delivery guy.   Since we have a pizza place a less than a quarter mile away we just go pick it up (buying it of course) and then bring it home.  The things children say and think are marvelous.  After that I said she could drive my truck if she could reach the pedals.  Her idea of reaching the pedals was to sit on the floor, take her shoes off and move them about a foot and a half away from her feet.  The she looked at me and said 'This should work.'.   

[B.D.F.]

You are absolutely right Jim. Thanks for doing your usual great job of nudging us the right direction without being harsh- it really does make this forum a pleasure to be a part of, at least for me.

Not interested in starting a thread about the dreaded 'P' word myself, and best of luck to anyone who does :-)  I could be interested in a thread about differences and similarities between the US and UK systems, for example but I am afraid that would also degenerate into po..... well, you know. Probably best left to a more private conversation with Mike.

Brian

Guys, this discussion is all well and good but it ought to be it's own thread in Open.  Someone please start it and continue on.

[mikeyw64]

Guys, this discussion is all well and good but it ought to be it's own thread in Open.  Someone please start it and continue on.

Please can you be more specific about which discussion you're referring too as this is A Thread About Nothing At All and it keeps meandering

[VirginiaJim]

See Brian's post...just above yours.   He understands.   This thread is about nothing at all with a few posts on whatever subject you want to discuss.  It's not a long running thread on specifics on any subject such as government.  I don't mind the subject matter at all.  I'm just saying it can be a thread all it's own and I think it would be better that way.

[mikeyw64]

See Brian's post...just above yours.   He understands.   This thread is about nothing at all with a few posts on whatever subject you want to discuss.  It's not a long running thread on specifics on any subject such as government.  I don't mind the subject matter at all.  I'm just saying it can be a thread all it's own and I think it would be better that way.

Well its just that your post came immediately after 2 posts about flags (ok 1 post about flags and one about pizzas)  so it was a little unclear.

after all it had already meandered away from the Stexit posts

[mikeyw64]

Well its just that your post came immediately after 2 posts about flags (ok 1 post about flags and one about pizzas)  so it was a little unclear.

after all it had already meandered away from the Stexit posts

is there a quota system in place for how many times something can be discussed?

Is it metric or imperial?

[just gone]

Is there a major difference between "nothing at all" and "nothing"? Well yes, there are two extra words, but I'm referring to the meaning.

Meanwhile, consider this: https://youtu.be/UemhCsaeGgc

is there a quota system in place for how many times something can be discussed?

Is it metric or imperial?

There is no difference between the two systems, 5 posts in metric = 5 posts in imperial. If ever that isn't true, then imperial rules by definition.

[VirginiaJim]

is there a quota system in place for how many times something can be discussed?

Is it metric or imperial?

As I don't like the metric system at all, I think I'm leaning towards Imperial, but prefer the US system at the moment.   But then again you left out the other system at work here.....Jim.

[mikeyw64]

As I don't like the metric system at all, I think I'm leaning towards Imperial, but prefer the US system at the moment.   But then again you left out the other system at work here.....Jim.

Besides the US Gallon which is smaller than am Imperial Gallon (which also means our pints are bigger as is anything else linked to the gallon) what other measurement differences are there between Imperial & US?

I think spoon size might be

Cloth sizes certainly are

[B.D.F.]

Actually, I think the two systems are pretty close in volume measurements such as fl. ounces, cups until it hits pints: then the big difference is that ours contains 16 ounces while yours contain 20 ounces.

The two systems are similar but there are plenty of differences, mostly small, but also we both use some extra odd units such as your 'stone' weight which is 14 lbs. Also, if I am not mistaken, you (UK) apply specific measurements to specific items being measured, again stones is used to define a human's weight but you do not buy, say, potatoes using 'stones' but rather pounds.

I believe our 'tons' are different too although it might be a matter of semantics. When an American uses the weight term 'ton' we are always referring to 2,000 lb. I believe the UK may use what we call the 'long ton', 2,240 lbs. but am not sure how you refer to it.

Our 'barrel' sizes are different also, although a 'barrel' is not a useful definition without more info.; a barrel of oil is a different size than a barrel of water, or a barrel of wine, or a barrel of whiskey..... I think.

As the story goes: the Mayflower could not wait for correct water barrels and so used wine barrels to store water for the journey to America. After arriving, they assigned UK gallon measurements to the wrong number of divisions coming out of the containers. And so that is where and how 'our' two systems started to part ways. Great story.... incorrect but still a great story.

Hat sizes in the US are something like 3/8" smaller than the UK due to the original hat blocking equipment being miss- calibrated in the US.

Clothes sizes are beyond my ability to comprehend, especially women's sizes (and girls, and junior- miss, ad nauseum) so I have no idea.

After that, most measuring metrics (not metric though) are so odd that I think everyone has to look them up; rods, chains, fathoms, furlongs and so forth are just not anything to most people remember well enough to use conversationally or scientifically.

Brian

Besides the US Gallon which is smaller than am Imperial Gallon (which also means our pints are bigger as is anything else linked to the gallon) what other measurement differences are there between Imperial & US?

I think spoon size might be

Cloth sizes certainly are

[B.D.F.]

Right, and it will be ruined if we settle down and discuss anything in detail. 

And as Jim said, anyone is free to start a new thread, using some or all of the posting already in this thread if one chooses to do so. I personally like to talk about what I will call Social Management (some call it politics) but do not care for the usual deterioration of such discussions into the hard- sided venue of political discussion. Start down that path, and I might as well be watching the 'Crazy Channel' on TV. And I have found any discussion started with the best of intentions and efforts about 'Social Management' quickly deteriorates to discussing the method of management, which is politics. Which is why I demurred on breaking this discussion off and into a new thread. Some things just cannot be discussed rationally unfortunately and so I stop before they even get going.... usually. :-)

Brian

Please can you be more specific about which discussion you're referring too as this is A Thread About Nothing At All and it keeps meandering

[mikeyw64]

Most potatoes are sold by the KG in the UK and have been for many years

so is most other food stuff, petrol is also sold in litres although beer is definitely Pints when sold draught although bottles are ml (or occaisonally cl)

Actually, I think the two systems are pretty close in volume measurements such as fl. ounces, cups until it hits pints: then the big difference is that ours contains 16 ounces while yours contain 20 ounces.

The two systems are similar but there are plenty of differences, mostly small, but also we both use some extra odd units such as your 'stone' weight which is 14 lbs. Also, if I am not mistaken, you (UK) apply specific measurements to specific items being measured, again stones is used to define a human's weight but you do not buy, say, potatoes using 'stones' but rather pounds.

I believe our 'tons' are different too although it might be a matter of semantics. When an American uses the weight term 'ton' we are always referring to 2,000 lb. I believe the UK may use what we call the 'long ton', 2,240 lbs. but am not sure how you refer to it.

Our 'barrel' sizes are different also, although a 'barrel' is not a useful definition without more info.; a barrel of oil is a different size than a barrel of water, or a barrel of wine, or a barrel of whiskey..... I think.

As the story goes: the Mayflower could not wait for correct water barrels and so used wine barrels to store water for the journey to America. After arriving, they assigned UK gallon measurements to the wrong number of divisions coming out of the containers. And so that is where and how 'our' two systems started to part ways. Great story.... incorrect but still a great story.

Hat sizes in the US are something like 3/8" smaller than the UK due to the original hat blocking equipment being miss- calibrated in the US.

Clothes sizes are beyond my ability to comprehend, especially women's sizes (and girls, and junior- miss, ad nauseum) so I have no idea.

After that, most measuring metrics (not metric though) are so odd that I think everyone has to look them up; rods, chains, fathoms, furlongs and so forth are just not anything to most people remember well enough to use conversationally or scientifically.

Brian

[mikeyw64]

Most potatoes are sold by the KG in the UK and have been for many years

so is most other food stuff, petrol is also sold in litres although beer is definitely Pints when sold draught although bottles are ml (or occaisonally cl)

Fenc panels are a good one as they come in either Imperial 6 ft (which are 1854mm iirc) or metric 6ft (1800mm)

Older houses with the fence posts tend to be the imperial size, newer housing stock generally has the metric size.

Same sort of thing with water pipe size .

Distance though are measure in miles and speedos are in MPH but also show KPH

[VirginiaJim]

So far the conversation has been civil.  When they get un-civil (my interpretation) they either get moved to another place (Arena) or they get shut down.  This thread is so big that I would be extremely reluctant to lock it (It would make me very irritable to do so) or censor it.   Mike, for you, the Arena is a place for those discussions that can get not so civil.  Members can ask for Arena access.  In which case we grant it.  There you can discuss whatever, any way you like.  There is no moderation as such.  What you get is what you get.  Threads aren't locked or sanitized. 

[VirginiaJim]

Most vehicles sold over here usually come with metric fasteners.   All of our other measurements such as dealing with roads or infrastructure uses the older English system of measurements.   When people start talking metric with the exception of fasteners, I have no clue on gauging what they are talking about.

[B.D.F.]

Yeah, well here in the colonies, we have been pretty successful.... hell, outright successful in not mixing up our units (Easy Boys! Not talking about that unit) or altering the landscape of reality due to a new measuring system. Our building supplies have NOT changed in the last 50 years or longer..... copper tubing from 1930 will sweat into new copper tubing purchased today. Same thing with our fences, building panel sizes (plywood, drywall, ad nauseum), which are all 4 X 8' and 4 X 12'.

Then again, we have made almost zero movement toward the metric system. So there is no competition or 'force' to use it. And not to throw stones but it does seem that in the UK you have the worst of all possible systems.... multiple systems.    I once heard fuel mileage stated in miles per liter or kilometers per gallon or some such mixing of measuring units. Of course that too works but really it is best and simplest I think to stay with one system. If converting, swallow the pill and go over to the 'other' system and be done with the pain.

Now that I have said that, our automotive industry HAS been shifting over to metric, one fastener at a time it seems. For a long time, the standard was still SAE (our 'inch' system) but some components used metric fasteners. The metric fasteners were blue so as to help (yeah, that is helpful). So a mechanic ends up with an auto all apart (broken down to bits in Brit. speak) and a bucket of hardware.... some black,some blue and it he / she cannot remember which went where, it is going to be long and painful to reassemble. Proof that there is no limit to bad ideas.

And one more point on measuring systems: no matter how mangled a system seems to be, it is always more mangled than that when looked at more closely. We have electrical wire gauge sizes, where the smaller the number, the larger the wire, number drill sizes, where the number means nothing regarding measured size, wire gauge sizes for [non electrical] wire which is again an independant measurement. Then some really off- the- wall measurements such as firearm gauge or 'bore' sizes as shotguns use. The smaller the number the bigger the bore, except for the shotgun gauge .410, which in not a guage at all but a caliber, and that caliber is .45 of course (??). Bore sized were orginally based on one lb. of lead, broken down into divisions: a lb. of lead used to make 12 equal spheres of lead would yield a 12 gauge bore (1 /12th of a pound of lead). This is why the bigger the number, the smaller the bore size. Same thing with wire; a fixed amount of material drawn into wire size would yield a length of wire and the smaller the diameter, the longer that length.  Oh yeah, it is truly a mixed bag of insanity to delve into measuring systems, at least those used in the Old World (and the US system is most assuredly based on Old World systems).

Brian

Fenc panels are a good one as they come in either Imperial 6 ft (which are 1854mm iirc) or metric 6ft (1800mm)

Older houses with the fence posts tend to be the imperial size, newer housing stock generally has the metric size.

Same sort of thing with water pipe size .

Distance though are measure in miles and speedos are in MPH but also show KPH