Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: JS_racer on July 12, 2015, 04:47:18 AM
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ok, here is what i know. finally found a shop who wanted to work on the bike. heard a lot of "our service is for our customers" and comments like that shopping for a place to have it fixed. very annoying to say the least. >:(
the shop found the clutch basket is bad, Kawasaki denied coverage due to milage and said the part is consumable, well, isn't everything on the bike going to ware out ?? not sure what i'll get railed for the part with the dealer mark-up but i need one. i'll get an exact price for the repair monday, ohh, the part is on back order also. great !! :-[
i am having my slave cylinder rebuilt, felt soft a few times on a hot soak with new fluid. for that to be covered it would have to be non functioning upon arival they said and not a intermittent problem.
good news, my windshield was looser than others i felt, when i was there it was stuck down and would not go up, wow, crazy something broke at the dealer. heh, anyways they are getting a new assembly installed and covered under my kawasaki extended warranty.
looks like i need to call kawasaki corp monday and see what they say. the slave cause it isnt broken could just be paying for pm and not a repair. who knows. the clutch basket is a hard part, should be covered ?? the dealer said my frictions look amazing and my steel are almost perfect, no clue if it was something i was doing or bad luck. everything could ware out at some point, right ?? so are those to be denied also due to mileage ?? 3 year unlimited mileage is how it reads correct ??
bike is an 09, new june of 2010, 87k miles with it living in Minnesota!!
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https://kpp.kawasaki.com/Terms-And-Conditions
that states what is and isnt covered.
Repair or replacement required as a result of (i) accident or collision; (ii) misuse, abuse or neglect; (iii) lack of reasonable and proper maintenance; (iv) repairs improperly performed or replacement parts improperly installed by an entity other than an authorized Kawasaki dealer; (v) use of replacement parts or accessories not conforming to Kawasaki specifications which adversely affect performance and/or durability; (vi) alterations or modifications not recommended or approved in writing by Kawasaki; or (vii) wear and deterioration (including loss of engine compression) occasioned by the use of the Product.
the dealer mentioned ware and deterioration for the clutch basket. ??
so frustrated, should have had it fixed on my trip or left it there. i had no clue what a huge pita this would become.
EXCLUSIONS FROM COVERAGE
1. Failures which are not due to a defect in material or factory workmanship.
that was also mentioned that if the part was bad it would have failed in the first few hundred or thousand miles.
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Joel, what were the symptoms that made you take it in.
Mine is in the shop right now {no word back yet} as well, for a knocking noise coming from the clutch/or trans area. Shifts well and sound doesn't change when clutch is activated. I rode it from the parking area to the bike wash in Springdale without my helmet or I never would have known anything was wrong. If I knew for sure it was the clutch I might have opened it up myself, but with a warranty in place I thought I should take it in just in case it is the transmission.
Perhaps you parked too close to me at the Twistar and yours caught a bug from mine or vicey versy.
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heh, or at star, but i parked at the hampton side of the lot., heard a clangy sound, and a knocking non rotational, clunky type sound. 2-3k in neutral, could feel it in the case, was not a good sound.
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,59956.0.html (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,59956.0.html)
is my thread on it at the "other" place. symptoms, initial diagnosis, things like that
heard it thursday, after star for the first time. more clangy, revved it holding rpm to see if it changed, then heard the knock clunk type noise.
hope this helps
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http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,59956.msg463984.html#msg463984 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,59956.msg463984.html#msg463984)
...their determination was the clutch basket springs are loose and worn flat in the basket....
It will be interesting to see if we have the same problem, I'm only at 43,000 miles on my '10. Mine (knock) does sound "rotational" (I think) and it's there all the time in all gears and speeds. (Strange how we both got the problem at STAR (http://ridemsta.com/srblog/star/). How come I didn't see you there Joel? :-\ Did you go to Cortez too?) I didn't continue to ride it but rather took it to the local Fayetteville dealer and left it with them for a week. My B-I-L is in Fayetteville and he lent me his DR650 to get home on. When the dealer called and said that he thought it was in the transmission I said I'd come get it. I didn't want the cases split so far from home. I towed my B-I-L's DR back to him and then loaded the C14 up and towed it back home (http://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-Tdx6Jgj/0/X3/i-Tdx6Jgj-X3.jpg) to the dealer where I bought it. Still waiting to hear something this coming week. Initially my local dealer's service manager said he didn't agree that it was in the transmission because it shifts fine...but he did have a puzzled expression on his face :o when there was no change in the noise when the clutch was activated.
To continue to ride it or not was a big decision for me made easier by my B-I-L living so close to STAR. I too worried about some sort of lock-up at speed. Still if it's making noise then there is always a chance of metal fragments flowing around in all the oil going every where (hopefully all caught by the filter). I guess I could have taken Greyhound home if I had'nt had a DR available to me.
Even with three other bikes in the garage it feels so empty and sad in there without my C14 in it. If there was any doubt about which bike is my favorite, the doubt is now gone. Well except for the noise thingy....does kinda make me worry about long term dependability issues. Would have been nice to win that FJR and rode that home. ;D
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I will be monitoring this discussion.
To me, the extended warranty should cover it.
Ride safe, Ted
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there were tons of people at star for sure, i just saw your bike on a stroll through the lot one evening. i stayed at the hampton, so parked on the side,
i didn't do cortez, was a tough debate and could only do one with a few days added. left for star saturday, home following monday from harrison, was a fun trip.
today i think the plan is to go visit the dealer, 150+ mile round trip, should be fun.
have to try to sell my case to them, the mechanic has never seen a bike with 85k miles on it, so it is suppose to need repairs and it should be all worn out in his eyes. if my bigger clunk is on the trans side and not the clutch side, im sure everything in there just wares out too per his logic, so the warranty could be useless splitting the case ?? not feeling great about this.
hell, i thought about dragging it back to Arkansas to have that dealer fix the clutch issue. sounds foolish going 1400 miles, but these kawasaki dealers are a huge pita to deal with. i know with them down there it would be handled and fixed with them on my side.
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......so the warranty could be useless splitting the case ?? not feeling great about this.
If Kawasaki won't cover splitting the cases for repairs that deep in an engine..then even at a low price, the extended warranty is really useless for most of us. I hope both of our bikes have their problems contained in the clutch area regardless of warranty coverage.
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Isn't there a Kawasaki USA site where you can contact Kawasaki?
If the dealer doesn't help you, go there and post a complaint.
If your a member of COG, mention COG....
Ride safe, Ted
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I'm starting to feel bad, since the shop his bike is at was my suggestion.... Sorry if they are not coming through for you!
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Isn't there a Kawasaki USA site where you can contact Kawasaki?
If the dealer doesn't help you, go there and post a complaint.
If your a member of COG, mention COG....
Ride safe, Ted
Kawasaki customer service number (949)-770-0400 then 1, then 5
And why would mentioning COG help?
If you get a Mark, tread carefully. He isn't our friend.
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That does not sound like a very valid reason to deny coverage.... especially one with unlimited mileage.
From far away and absolutely not being fully aware of your situation, it would seem to me that any [non- maintenance, non- wear] internal engine / transmission should be covered for the life of the warranty. Seeing as the clutch basket is absolutely not a part that must be maintained or has an inspection / change interval, I would expect it to be covered under warranty.
I believe a lot of cases of warranty application are really due more to the dealer than the factory. If the dealer asks, and even pushes a bit, the factory will cover a lot more items and areas than they will if an easy 'Nah, we do not want to cover that' does not get any push- back. And unfortunately, the factory does not pay very well for a dealer to repair these type of internal (Easy Boys!) repairs so it is really not in the dealer's interest to have them warranty it anyway- they will charge the customer far more than Kawasaki will pay for the same repair.
Best of luck with this.
Brian
https://kpp.kawasaki.com/Terms-And-Conditions
that states what is and isnt covered.
Repair or replacement required as a result of (i) accident or collision; (ii) misuse, abuse or neglect; (iii) lack of reasonable and proper maintenance; (iv) repairs improperly performed or replacement parts improperly installed by an entity other than an authorized Kawasaki dealer; (v) use of replacement parts or accessories not conforming to Kawasaki specifications which adversely affect performance and/or durability; (vi) alterations or modifications not recommended or approved in writing by Kawasaki; or (vii) wear and deterioration (including loss of engine compression) occasioned by the use of the Product.
the dealer mentioned ware and deterioration for the clutch basket. ??
so frustrated, should have had it fixed on my trip or left it there. i had no clue what a huge pita this would become.
EXCLUSIONS FROM COVERAGE
1. Failures which are not due to a defect in material or factory workmanship.
that was also mentioned that if the part was bad it would have failed in the first few hundred or thousand miles.
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hell, i thought about dragging it back to Arkansas to have that dealer fix the clutch issue. sounds foolish going 1400 miles, but these kawasaki dealers are a huge pita to deal with. i know with them down there it would be handled and fixed with them on my side.
well, that answers the issue completely....
here's the skinny....
you had that dealer open it up, and analyze the problem..... and they were willing to fix it under GTPP or KPP as its called now.....
pick up the phone......
they put that service into a database, and its available to Kaw.... it was approved once, there is no reason this new dealer can dispute it, and that is what's happening.... he's disputing it, not Kaw.
that basket is NOT considered as a user responsable maintained part, I.e. needs inspection or changing, or anything but normal oil in the engine.
they specifically told you the clutch plates were not worn or damaged.... so its clear there is no abuseive cause to be blamed on you....
the plan covers time and parts paid for by kaw to the dealer, using approved parts, in all instances of manufacturing defect, or failure of a part, on a warranty with UNLIMITED mileage, not based on time,
you need to get this dealership onboard, and go to the owner of that dealership on this.... not some tech dude, that could care less....that is the weak link.
I'll state again, Kawasaki bonafide dealers, all of them, ALL of them, are required to perform warrantee services no matter what, they simply cannot pick and choose whose bike the "want" to work on.... you paid for a bike with a warrantee.... and an additional amount for this protection.
id also suggest you go to the thread I have about buying extended waranties, and call my pal Pete, they are closed on Mondays, but tomorry he should be in, tell him I said to call him, and explain the way you are being treated and everything that has transpired... and ask his opinion......I'm sure you would get a different take on what highly rated dealerships do vs the one you are having issues with......
He might even give you his "hotline number", to his factoryservice rep....not some flunky that will ditch ya...
I'm on my final extension, and my nine years is closing in, but I have full confidence this is a covered repair.
only one blocking this is the tech manager...
get on the phone to ARKANSAS...
best of luck
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UPDATE:
well called kawasaki, they saw on the notes from the current dealer, not a defect, normal ware and tare. kawasaki could do nothing and did nothing because the dealer said stuff wares out. they were asked to explain the part, dealer said it looks worn out. didn't see a diagnosis from the original dealer, just that they opened a case number and inspected. it did say what their findings were, just no cause.
called the current dealer, they told me nothing lasts forever, everything wares out eventually. stuff just gets worn out. ??? k, so i ask how long this part normally lasts for, they have no idea, 50k, 100k, 150k, they have no idea. mine is the highest mileage bike they have seen.
called back to Harrison Arkansas, the original dealer that looked at it. he was shocked at how this was going!! he said he would call Kawasaki tomorrow to see if they could get anywhere with it. Much appreciated.
next would be if my bigger clunk was on the transmission side, i asked if stuff there just wares out too, he said absolutely, everything wares out and needs replacing and i have a ton of miles on the bike. he would think if there was a defect it would have broke right away. great !! >:(
what an absolute pita this has become, spend $650 or so, and hope that was all there is and its not on the trans side too for more out of pocket " stuff wares out " Drag it back 700 miles to a shop that wants to help the customer and fix the bike. 100 gallons of gas each trip and a night stay, x2.
if i knew dealing with warranty stuff would be this much fun, i would have parted ways with the bike long ago. i love it, feels great, rides and handles great, but not sure i want to go down this road with my dealer network here again. still covered till june of next year, for stuff that doesn't " just ware out " i guess.
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I, too, don't understand this "wears out" crud. Indeed, EVERYTHING wears on EVERY vehicle. Every switch, every gear, every part. Even things that are eventually found to be a defective part got that way with wear, unless it was broken the moment you got the bike home.
If Kawasaki wants to exclude any type of non-regular-maintenance part, due to non-abusive "wear", then they better well had put a mileage maximum on the coverage (which would not be unreasonable) or specifically list what they plan to exclude in the terms of the contract.
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Here is what I know and a little of what I think...
Dealers in MN are not used to seeing bikes with 85000+ miles and have the same brain dead mentality that bikes are all worn out by 30,000 miles (unless it is on their sales floor and they are selling it)---and this dealer already indicated as much numerous times
The MN dealers (6 of them who were presented with this) all had the mentality of greed........you aren't our customer, so they had no reason to put in any effort, regardless of whether they are bound by law or not (being an authorized kaw dealer).........would you want someone to work on your bike who doesn't want to?--I wouldn't !!!---none of them said they wouldn't look at it, they just said it would be weeks and weeks and that it probably wasn't covered---even without seeing the bike.......... which tells me they would not have presented it to Ma Kaw in any manner other than one to guarantee denial!
The dealer makes no money on parts via warranty work and labor hourly $ is usually about 1/2 what they charge retail customers---so there is a huge financial incentive for the dealers to deny (that is right....dealer deny) warranty work
Ma Kaw- relies on the dealers report and recommendation on warranty work---if a dealer presents something something as "worn out" or "abused" or in any way gives Ma Kaw an out to say no......ma kaw takes it--------- so while it is ma kaw that has their name on the warranty it ultimately is the dealer who will either get it approved or not ( Ma Kaw is not sending out agents to inspect warranty claims, they 99% rely solely on what the dealer represents.......so which dealer and how greedy they are, how educated they are, and how much they want to help you is the battle--- I have done this go round with a few of my customers in the past and ultimately it comes down to convincing someone (dealership staff) to present the case in a manner ma kaw says yes---and if you can't get the dealer to do, then you need to go direct (which is far harder and far less likely to succeed......it is the same with all the oems, ....so don't bash Kaw, it is bash the greedy idiots at the dealerships!!)
The dealership in AR never got Ma Kaw approval (I think) so they just told Joel the issue and that it should be covered....Joel opted to bring it back to MN to be covered rather than leave the bike 700 miles from home --- hindsight, that would have been the best option---(opinion)
The AR dealers experience with seeing bikes with "high mileage" and their lack of greed would have been the deciding factor and ma kaw would have rubber stamped covered the repair based on the dealers recommendation (opinion based on past facts and experience with oem warranty coverage)
I do think at this point the MN dealer is a lost cause and no matter what is not going to do anything more to try and cover the repair (no financial incentive for them)... they would rather make a couple hundred profit on selling the OP the part and another couple hundred on the labor and never see him again, and possibly if there is tranny issues the could stand to make thousands off the OP if left there to fix.......as apposed to making possibly $75 total on labor (to install said clutch basket under warranty) and possibly see him in the future, he is 80 miles away-they have little reason to believe he is coming back for routine services to make a "winfall" later....(opinion)... which goes to their financial greed....sure they have overhead, so do I and so do you- so we can't "lose" money but we also don't need to steal the damn money either........which is what I feel they are doing
Finally, the warranty contracts are settled via binding arbitration, which costs money and lots of time and you are highly likely to lose your case without getting an authorized dealer to attend and go to bat for you (which is what one needs originally to get it covered), so short of just paying out of pocket to fix it all then going after ma kaw and trying to recoup all expenses and having the AR dealer come and fight (for zero compensation and likely possibly some retaliation) this is a lose lose situation...
My thought, short of towing back to AR and have that huge expense ( more than the cost of a new basket and install) for a few trips and a few weeks (as the clutch basket is not even in stock in the USA) is to pick it up from current dealer...... buy the new basket new at a discount from someone who isn't hosing retail + 20% and have it installed or install it yourself and see if that fixes everything (or just pay Planeview the $650 or so and have them do it)....... if all the noise came from only the basket, eat the expense and move along with your life and don't **** away all summer fighting...... if once that is done and the noise is still there or the tranny is **** or whatever they "think" in Planeview..... then haul to AR with all the old parts in hand and see if they can re-imburse you for the basket that was/is clearly covered (IMO) and get the rest of the work needed as covered as resultant damage or whatever....
It is still a ton of expense hauling the bike 700 miles- come home and weeks later go back and haul it home, but..... it may be the only option- short of eating all the expenses yourself
I have zero relationship with Planeview Kaw, so it isn't like the local dealers I can bully around into covering stuff they don't want to. But I have given you as many of the needed skills to present the case over the past couple weeks, but I do think Planeview is a lost cause at this point regardless of if jesus himself came down from heaven and told them the facts.... So it surely isn't worth my time and effort to go down their and try and fight them on it.....perhaps on drop off day or pull the basket out day it would have been???( seems they have uneducated stupid techs and service manager to me)--but at this point- they firmly have their head shoved deep up their own ass and are not going to budge....I bet they never talked to ma kaw a second or third time either like they told you either(opinion)
I can try calling ma kaw direct for you.........but I haven't even seen the part, and the fact I am not a Kawasaki authorized dealer, not like I can do the work for them...to ma kaw (on this certainly) I am just some schmo trying to get into their pocket... At this point they are going to have to hear from a dealer who has the opinion and push to stand up to the denied claim and state it needs to be covered for xyz reasons.......and that sounds like the AR dealer---surely there are others, but you know they already feel this way and will work for you!!!
It is always about the dealer, always. How good the staff is and their values....really goes for anything in life, it comes down to individuals to do the right thing, and unfortunately all too often it is tough to find those individuals...
While parts do wear (not ware) out..... 85k on a clutch basket on a C14.... come on, I see goldwings who tow trailers, Ventures who do the same with 200k without clutch basket issues, I see sportbikes with over 80k that see 10k rpm plus routinely without clutch basket issues (I own one of those)--it came down to the dealers inexperience and inability.......period---that is why it got the rubber stamp of denial. the dealer didn't do anything to get it approved, hell as stated they have a huge financial incentive for it not to get approved
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Here is what I know and a little of what I think...
Dealers in MN are not used to seeing bikes with 85000+ miles and have the same brain dead mentality that bikes are all worn out by 30,000 miles (unless it is on their sales floor and they are selling it)---and this dealer already indicated as much numerous times
The MN dealers (6 of them who were presented with this) all had the mentality of greed........you aren't our customer, so they had no reason to put in any effort, regardless of whether they are bound by law or not (being an authorized kaw dealer).........would you want someone to work on your bike who doesn't want to?--I wouldn't !!!---none of them said they wouldn't look at it, they just said it would be weeks and weeks and that it probably wasn't covered---even without seeing the bike.......... which tells me they would not have presented it to Ma Kaw in any manner other than one to guarantee denial!
The dealer makes no money on parts via warranty work and labor hourly $ is usually about 1/2 what they charge retail customers---so there is a huge financial incentive for the dealers to deny (that is right....dealer deny) warranty work
Ma Kaw- relies on the dealers report and recommendation on warranty work---if a dealer presents something something as "worn out" or "abused" or in any way gives Ma Kaw an out to say no......ma kaw takes it--------- so while it is ma kaw that has their name on the warranty it ultimately is the dealer who will either get it approved or not ( Ma Kaw is not sending out agents to inspect warranty claims, they 99% rely solely on what the dealer represents.......so which dealer and how greedy they are, how educated they are, and how much they want to help you is the battle--- I have done this go round with a few of my customers in the past and ultimately it comes down to convincing someone (dealership staff) to present the case in a manner ma kaw says yes---and if you can't get the dealer to do, then you need to go direct (which is far harder and far less likely to succeed......it is the same with all the oems, ....so don't bash Kaw, it is bash the greedy idiots at the dealerships!!)
The dealership in AR never got Ma Kaw approval (I think) so they just told Joel the issue and that it should be covered....Joel opted to bring it back to MN to be covered rather than leave the bike 700 miles from home --- hindsight, that would have been the best option---(opinion)
The AR dealers experience with seeing bikes with "high mileage" and their lack of greed would have been the deciding factor and ma kaw would have rubber stamped covered the repair based on the dealers recommendation (opinion based on past facts and experience with oem warranty coverage)
I do think at this point the MN dealer is a lost cause and no matter what is not going to do anything more to try and cover the repair (no financial incentive for them)... they would rather make a couple hundred profit on selling the OP the part and another couple hundred on the labor and never see him again, and possibly if there is tranny issues the could stand to make thousands off the OP if left there to fix.......as apposed to making possibly $75 total on labor (to install said clutch basket under warranty) and possibly see him in the future, he is 80 miles away-they have little reason to believe he is coming back for routine services to make a "winfall" later....(opinion)... which goes to their financial greed....sure they have overhead, so do I and so do you- so we can't "lose" money but we also don't need to steal the damn money either........which is what I feel they are doing
Finally, the warranty contracts are settled via binding arbitration, which costs money and lots of time and you are highly likely to lose your case without getting an authorized dealer to attend and go to bat for you (which is what one needs originally to get it covered), so short of just paying out of pocket to fix it all then going after ma kaw and trying to recoup all expenses and having the AR dealer come and fight (for zero compensation and likely possibly some retaliation) this is a lose lose situation...
My thought, short of towing back to AR and have that huge expense ( more than the cost of a new basket and install) for a few trips and a few weeks (as the clutch basket is not even in stock in the USA) is to pick it up from current dealer...... buy the new basket new at a discount from someone who isn't hosing retail + 20% and have it installed or install it yourself and see if that fixes everything (or just pay Planeview the $650 or so and have them do it)....... if all the noise came from only the basket, eat the expense and move along with your life and don't **** away all summer fighting...... if once that is done and the noise is still there or the tranny is **** or whatever they "think" in Planeview..... then haul to AR with all the old parts in hand and see if they can re-imburse you for the basket that was/is clearly covered (IMO) and get the rest of the work needed as covered as resultant damage or whatever....
It is still a ton of expense hauling the bike 700 miles- come home and weeks later go back and haul it home, but..... it may be the only option- short of eating all the expenses yourself
I have zero relationship with Planeview Kaw, so it isn't like the local dealers I can bully around into covering stuff they don't want to. But I have given you as many of the needed skills to present the case over the past couple weeks, but I do think Planeview is a lost cause at this point regardless of if jesus himself came down from heaven and told them the facts.... So it surely isn't worth my time and effort to go down their and try and fight them on it.....perhaps on drop off day or pull the basket out day it would have been???( seems they have uneducated stupid techs and service manager to me)--but at this point- they firmly have their head shoved deep up their own ass and are not going to budge....I bet they never talked to ma kaw a second or third time either like they told you either(opinion)
I can try calling ma kaw direct for you.........but I haven't even seen the part, and the fact I am not a Kawasaki authorized dealer, not like I can do the work for them...to ma kaw (on this certainly) I am just some schmo trying to get into their pocket... At this point they are going to have to hear from a dealer who has the opinion and push to stand up to the denied claim and state it needs to be covered for xyz reasons.......and that sounds like the AR dealer---surely there are others, but you know they already feel this way and will work for you!!!
It is always about the dealer, always. How good the staff is and their values....really goes for anything in life, it comes down to individuals to do the right thing, and unfortunately all too often it is tough to find those individuals...
While parts do wear (not ware) out..... 85k on a clutch basket on a C14.... come on, I see goldwings who tow trailers, Ventures who do the same with 200k without clutch basket issues, I see sportbikes with over 80k that see 10k rpm plus routinely without clutch basket issues (I own one of those)--it came down to the dealers inexperience and inability.......period---that is why it got the rubber stamp of denial. the dealer didn't do anything to get it approved, hell as stated they have a huge financial incentive for it not to get approved
well... that was almost a two beer job to read your conjecture... you need a bit more education on the workings of Kawasaki policy tho.
first off, they can't make money on the part, as it is being supplied to them cost free, along with associated parts... I.e. gaskets and such... no big deal.
now... the pay for the time... and listen closely here....
Kaw prints service times, and relative hours.... the issue is, any dealership anywhere, will charge you 2x those hours, and at their inflated rates... and then add in hazardous waste fees, shop rags, etc.... kaw sets the standard, and that is what they pay.... they pay the shop the ACTUAL shop rate based on KAW specified replacement time.... so jackoff tech dude goes and smokes a doobie, and can't find a bolt... not Kaws problem... its a basic fact, and they even bend it when submitting "ammended service" times to Ma Kaw, who does in some cases ammend the time... not always, but it happens...
clear case of a shop wanting to charge you for 40 man hours, at their rate... when Kaw says its 17... hmmmmmmmm, and in reality if they are anywhere decent, and have training, Kaw would accept 20 hours.... but not more than double, especially when Kaw DOES set labor rates.... and only allows a few percent based on per capita locations, for deviations... clearly this dealer does not sell enough bikes to warrent Kaw to give them some leeway,
maybe they should work harder......
as for his prior service, before one bolt was turned, there WAS a database report being filed... its just the way they do business...
before spouting off general knowledge and such, better be in the pulse stream of Kawasaki service.... I for one am....
and have been for many years... don't give conjecture.
sorry for the rant, but there was a lot of drivel, imho, being spewed her in your post
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You probably should have had a few more then.....
There is not one fact in my post that isn't true and happening.
I have dealt with far more warranty issues with all the oems than any one person should have to.........
whether you think you know more than I do or not----you have your opinion and I have mine......
I can site atleast a dozen warranty claims in the past 3 years I have had to step in and help the customer out of, and all them follow what I have laid out......
and your initial dribble- you clearly didn't read or comprehend what I said about their financial incentive to not have it covered......... or did not care to know or have it be shared??
Kaw states 1.3 hours to replace the clutch basket, kaw pays the dealer under warranty $45 or maybe it is $48/hr now, dealer only gets the parts for free (as does the consumer....no profits for anyone there).....so dealer makes at best 1.3 x $48 for said repairs
now joe schmo customer comes in for same repairs and is a "retail paying customer" and that 1.3 will often be 2.0 or even 2.5 and at $95/hr or whatever the posted shop rate is.......that $480 retail clutch basket has a 48% margin so another $230ish of parts profit for the dealer....
so option A---warranty--dealer makes $62.40 (and if they pad and get approved to double...woohoo they get $124.80)
option B---consumer retail customer---dealer makes roughly $400-$500 in their pocket
gee easy math to see why the dealer is more interested in seeing retail repair instead of warranty
Now go ahead and drink a few more, maybe it will help you understand
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Sorry this is happening to you. My Voyager with 50,000 miles on it made a awful noise in a bumpy construction zone, then I was left with a loud tick like the Hydraulic Lash Adjuster lost pressure. Brought it into a dealer that never had any of my business, (guy I bought from closed) and they were very helpful. They acknowledged the noise and contacted Kawasaki. Kawasaki directed them regarding what to do.
They took the conservative approach and ran detergents through the oil. When it didn't clear up, they authorized pulling the engine and taking a look. When the cover was pulled the tech discovered that one of the Kawasaki Automatic Compression Release dohickys came apart and bounced around the valvetrain and down the cam chain into the rocker case. The oil screens kept the pieces from getting into the oil passages.
$2000 and 8 weeks later the bike is running great. Not a penny out of my pocket.
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You probably should have had a few more then.....
There is not one fact in my post that isn't true and happening.
I have dealt with far more warranty issues with all the oems than any one person should have to.........
whether you think you know more than I do or not----you have your opinion and I have mine......
I can site atleast a dozen warranty claims in the past 3 years I have had to step in and help the customer out of, and all them follow what I have laid out......
and your initial dribble- you clearly didn't read or comprehend what I said about their financial incentive to not have it covered......... or did not care to know or have it be shared??
Kaw states 1.3 hours to replace the clutch basket, kaw pays the dealer under warranty $45 or maybe it is $48/hr now, dealer only gets the parts for free (as does the consumer....no profits for anyone there).....so dealer makes at best 1.3 x $48 for said repairs
now joe schmo customer comes in for same repairs and is a "retail paying customer" and that 1.3 will often be 2.0 or even 2.5 and at $95/hr or whatever the posted shop rate is.......that $480 retail clutch basket has a 48% margin so another $230ish of parts profit for the dealer....
so option A---warranty--dealer makes $62.40 (and if they pad and get approved to double...woohoo they get $124.80)
option B---consumer retail customer---dealer makes roughly $400-$500 in their pocket
gee easy math to see why the dealer is more interested in seeing retail repair instead of warranty
Now go ahead and drink a few more, maybe it will help you understand
so please copy and post here the checklist for the replacement of the clutch basket, and all associated inspections that supposedly Kaw says they give 1.3 hours payment for. Please... I have one last beer. look forward to your documents.
on the rest, I do agree about the price gouging, and not it as such.
just don't agree about where you got your figure on the job time,
do you have access to this documentation?
are these "issues" you assited with directly associate with Kawasaki?
and still, the issue that a bonafide Kaw service and sales outlet can refuse service, address that, because you have me wondering about owning and servicing Kawasaki bike for almost 40 years.. enlighten me please.
I'm open minded, and fully read and comprehend what you responded with, but still don't know why you think this is credible or can be bcked up.
ride safe,
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I think we all would agree the major problems with dealers and warranty work are they they prefer to make more money by NOT doing warranty work, by turning warranty work into non-warranty work, by tacking non-warranty work onto a warranty job, and by delaying warranty work so they can do non-warranty work first. All of those hurt the warranty-seeking customer. It is a shame it has to be that way, and it is not just Kawasaki- it works almost the same way for just about every vehicle dealer (my best friend is a mechanic and has done lots of warranty work in lots of shops. Although he is very good, decent, and moral, he has told me plenty of stories of exactly what I described above being done by others... and worse things (like using used parts instead of new, skipping important steps on purpose, falsifying forms, etc) ).
The only real threat to the dealer is that a customer reports bad behavior back to Kawasaki and Kawasaki then takes action against the dealer. I doubt that happens often, though (or not often enough).
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Oh you guys are just giving me all kinds of hope. :-\ :P :'( :(
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so please copy and post here the checklist for the replacement of the clutch basket, and all associated inspections that supposedly Kaw says they give 1.3 hours payment for. Please... I have one last beer. look forward to your documents.
on the rest, I do agree about the price gouging, and not it as such.
just don't agree about where you got your figure on the job time,
do you have access to this documentation?
are these "issues" you assited with directly associate with Kawasaki?
and still, the issue that a bonafide Kaw service and sales outlet can refuse service, address that, because you have me wondering about owning and servicing Kawasaki bike for almost 40 years.. enlighten me please.
I'm open minded, and fully read and comprehend what you responded with, but still don't know why you think this is credible or can be bcked up.
ride safe,
Splitting hairs on whether is a quoted 1.3 hour job time or not---well why? who cares? it is an example............but that 1.3 hour number came from the OP who got it from the dealer who currently has his bike............ but if you want to split hairs I surely can get you the exact printout of what kawi pays for what....
but again, it is a total non issue and only goes to split hairs taking away from what this discussion is really about...........
so---
on the job time......answered and if you need I can go further
on the access.........yes I have access, just not at 1:32 in the am
are these issues directly with Kawasaki---yes and no........ of the 4 most recent, 1 was with Kawasaki, 2 with Yamaha and 1 with Suzuki......all were denied until I went in and intervened and pushed and shoved and proved my every point to dealers and the manufacturers alike......huge waste of my time and effort but for my customers I will go the extra mile, especially to right a wrong......
I will give you a brief (because this was a 40 hours of my time and weeks on end endeavor) on the latest Kawasaki;
2012 ZX10, tip of a valve stem broke off, but did not drop the valve etc........customer simply thought it was due for its second valve adjustment or maybe the cam chain tensioner was not adjusting....... I got it apart for the work and found the valve tip broke off and mile of valve clearance...........not being an authorized dealer and knowing he had an extended warranty--I talked to customer and gave him the option.......for whatever the parts cost was to replace what was needed---at the time I guess it would be somewhere around $500 maybe less for me to fix the issue (pull engine, remove head, install atleast that one new valve and the retaining washer, the cotter clips and bucket....maybe more once apart--I would see the rest of the valve train better once apart) and finish everything or....put it back together and haul to dealer and hope they do a good job for him...
he opted to save the $500ish (much to his regret later)
So dealer denies the coverage claiming the valve shims were soft (aftermarket)---and it is the dealer who denied, not ma Kaw--because it is the dealers presentation and recommendation that decides the fate of warranty claims--ma kaw (suz,Hon,yam) all just follow the lead of the dealer....
So I go in with my service records of said bike and my 13,800 oem valve shims and some aftermarket ones and lay it out there........and ask why they feel they are aftermarket shims
the service manager and tech both (independently away from each other) state it has to be an aftermarket shim because that is the only way this could happen.......um and your experience is what???
they could not even tell an oem shim from a Hot bodies, from a K&L from a couple other shitty aftermarket brands when I laid them on the counter side by side....
So the service tech storms off, the service manager argues his tech knows more than I do (what a fucking joke that is) and that there is no other way this could happen
a couple hours later of "proving these are oem shims (even provided receipts of thousands of them I bought from that very dealership) and handing over copies of both the valve adjustments and all notes ( a hammer and nail set on oe shims..no mark, the same on aftermarket shims and a huge dent, one even broke)
he made some statement how he would contact ma kaw again, about a week later when pushed what is taking so long he finally states it was still denied.
I called ma kaw- livid and with facts on my side, case number in hand and customer also on the line......... while at the dealership and let fly
Well the dealer didn't like the fuss, they didn't like the attention of negativity the insinuation (although I flat out called them a fucking idiot moron....so no insinuation at all- it just is fact) and ma kaw was then in the yes mood...
the dealer however himmed and hawed for the next month before finally ordering bare bones minimum---after yanking the broken off valve through the guide and scoring the **** out of the guide
they only replaced the one valve and all 16 shims.......no other parts sans a head gasket , not even oil-- So they opted to do the leats and even caused more damage on the way, breaking the heat deflector, scoring that valve guide and scratching some of the bodywork etc....
So had this dealer presented this to ma kaw to begin with as .... hey we have this 30,000 mile 2012 ZX10 with a valve issue and all scheduled service had been done with oe parts........any reasonable person knows damn well it would have been stamped approved immediately...... I have worked at Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha and Honda dealerships and dealt with tons of warranty bullshit.........in the end I fought I won and it was covered, something the penny pinchers at the dealer were never going to do, because they looked at $.......and how much they could have "stolen" from the customer.. I am not out to make friends, I don't even like people at all- but I also don't like people getting screwed and have no issue to fight to not have that happen
As far as what they can "refuse"...... I never claimed they could refuse anything....but they sure can present something in a manner in which to guarantee non coverage..........they sure can make it take forever to get your bike back by not making it a priority and doing other stuff first.........they sure can make your life hell if/when they decide or make it easy peasy if they so decide...........and this is not a Kawasaki issue as I have stated previously........this is a greedy uneducated personnel problem with no work ethics/morals or care for anything but the almighty dollar and how they can shove the most of them in their pocket with the least effort
When a dealer is more interested in pushing to make $500 profit and "screwing" the consumer than making say $75 and making the customer happy and doing what is right.........well it is not a dealership I would ever go to!
here are a couple pictures of that 2012 ZX10r valve head
You don't like me........... I get it and I simply do not give a damn if you do or don't........ALL of my customers love me and there is a reason for that!
So you call my posts as rantings, conjecture, drivvle---I call your posts as stupid and uneducated...... you don't know me at all, you have no idea what I know or what I have done or accomplished..........but from the sounds of it (and I speculate because I don't know you either) I know, have accomplished and have experienced a **** ton more than you have, despite your claim to be in "Kawasaki pulse stream". It is you who needs some more education...IMO
maxtogs latest post is pretty spot on.......Far more on point than anything I have read from you.
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Just a small interlude here, back to the action in a bit I'm sure. :popcorn:
It will be interesting to see if we have the same problem,....
That doesn't appear to be happening. The Service manager just called me with an update, they pulled the clutch and said my problem isn't in the clutch.
He says it is in the trans. He's calling Kawasaki to see about splitting the cases. Oh groan. :banghead:
OK, you two please continue on. (making those of us in need of our warranties become more depressed.)
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Shifting without the clutch must have caused the problem ::)
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I'm getting so sick and tired of these threads degrading to people making personal attacks.
What the **** is up with people on this forum these days?
What happened to the days when we all just got along?
Is this a stupid rice rocket forum now?
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As far as I know it isn't. People have strong opinions and at times they come out. No one has called anyone names yet so we just keep on keeping on.
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I'm getting so sick and tired of these threads degrading to people making personal attacks.
What the **** is up with people on this forum these days?
What happened to the days when we all just got along?
Is this a stupid rice rocket forum now?
It's hot outside, that's all.
I'd say if you only hear it with your helmet off, keep your helmet on. If it blows up, they can fix it then.
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This one time, in band camp, I saw a C-14 that happened to swallow 4th gear. It was covered under warranty but I have to say that it was a sad sight to see a C-14 broken down that far; all the way to the engine out, cases separated and transmission apart; the carcass covered three tables. The story had a happy ending in that the bike went back together and all was well for the owner other than he was out several weeks of riding time while the repair was being done.
As far as your situation being depressing, I can certainly see that. But imagine how much more depressing it would be if you did not have the warranty; the bike would still be 'broke', you would still be looking at a long down- time but then you would have the icing on the cake of getting the bill for the repair.
Brian
Just a small interlude here, back to the action in a bit I'm sure. :popcorn:
That doesn't appear to be happening. The Service manager just called me with an update, they pulled the clutch and said my problem isn't in the clutch.
He says it is in the trans. He's calling Kawasaki to see about splitting the cases. Oh groan. :banghead:
OK, you two please continue on. (making those of us in need of our warranties become more depressed.)
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I'm getting so sick and tired of these threads degrading to people making personal attacks.
What the **** is up with people on this forum these days?
What happened to the days when we all just got along?
Is this a stupid rice rocket forum now?
I think you are being far too sensitive, none of the conversation has even involved you. And I don't view anything I said as a personal attack against anyone on here so :P
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Shifting without the clutch must have caused the problem ::)
I lol'd........... you go to the wrong dealer and I am sure this is the response one would get and thus warranty coverage denied. Sad but all too often true
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Just a small interlude here, back to the action in a bit I'm sure. :popcorn:
That doesn't appear to be happening. The Service manager just called me with an update, they pulled the clutch and said my problem isn't in the clutch.
He says it is in the trans. He's calling Kawasaki to see about splitting the cases. Oh groan. :banghead:
OK, you two please continue on. (making those of us in need of our warranties become more depressed.)
So, you should't owe them anything which is at least good news, right? You shouldn't have to pay them for going on a wild goose Chase.
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well, new game plan, i am pulling the bike from there with the basket not repaired.
hope this goes as good as i think it will,
Monday i think will be the day, if the windshield is fixed then, great, if not, well it will be fixed the next stop.
got some great miles in already this year, long trip to NC/TN , 3 days weekend in the alphabets of Wisconsin, and a 9 day trip to Arkansas . if the bike is laid up another week or two, i can deal with that for sure. :thumbs:
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So, you should't owe them anything which is at least good news, right?
Yeah, I guess that's good news.
Even if it's all repaired for free, I'll admit that I still have doubts about the future of my bike. Something about having the engine removed and split open for the repairs. Will it still run the same? Will there be new strange vibrations?
Will I be able to go on a long trip and not suffer from "strange noise anxiety" when miles from home.
...and...why me? I really thought they'd find the problem in the clutch, since I don't do clutch-less shifting and I've used synthetic oil since the break-in, I can't understand why I've got a transmission problem. I've even got tamper resistant oil caps. Is it something I'm doing wrong or was my bike just made on a Monday when they were short handed at the factory (does that happen in Japan?).
Yes, things could be much worse, but I really wish they were better. :P :-\ :(
I guess I'm just in a glass half empty mood today.
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marty, i would completely feel the same way.
hope they follow the motor torque sequence for minimizing vibrations
i also understand the why mine mentality, i have spent tons of thousands in maintenance and stuff, but here i am too,
luck, or whatever, lets hope we both come out good with coverage at least. :)
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I think if I were in your shoes, when I got the bike back, I would take it out and just RAIL on for a day. If it stays together, it should be fine. If it shakes loose, get it back to the dealer.
As far as the mental part goes, I'll reiterate.
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Yeah, I guess that's good news.
Even if it's all repaired for free, I'll admit that I still have doubts about the future of my bike. Something about having the engine removed and split open for the repairs. Will it still run the same? Will there be new strange vibrations?
Will I be able to go on a long trip and not suffer from "strange noise anxiety" when miles from home.
...and...why me? I really thought they'd find the problem in the clutch, since I don't do clutch-less shifting and I've used synthetic oil since the break-in, I can't understand why I've got a transmission problem. I've even got tamper resistant oil caps. Is it something I'm doing wrong or was my bike just made on a Monday when they were short handed at the factory (does that happen in Japan?).
Yes, things could be much worse, but I really wish they were better. :P :-\ :(
I guess I'm just in a glass half empty mood today.
Where did you get the tamper resistant oil cap? ???
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Murphs (http://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?cPath=130_133&products_id=412)
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Yeah, I guess that's good news.
Even if it's all repaired for free, I'll admit that I still have doubts about the future of my bike. Something about having the engine removed and split open for the repairs. Will it still run the same? Will there be new strange vibrations?
Will I be able to go on a long trip and not suffer from "strange noise anxiety" when miles from home.
...and...why me? I really thought they'd find the problem in the clutch, since I don't do clutch-less shifting and I've used synthetic oil since the break-in, I can't understand why I've got a transmission problem. I've even got tamper resistant oil caps. Is it something I'm doing wrong or was my bike just made on a Monday when they were short handed at the factory (does that happen in Japan?).
Yes, things could be much worse, but I really wish they were better. :P :-\ :(
I guess I'm just in a glass half empty mood today.
Exactly what I am going through with the Voyager. Being hyper alert to noises, smells, and the 'geek's of the bike.
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I used to have a guy who worked for me go in for hemorrhoid surgery and he had almost the identical thoughts: Will it run the same? Will there be strange, new vibrations? Will I still be able to go for a long ride? In his particular case, I think it turned out OK although to be honest, it did not come up in conversation a lot. But still, he <seemed> OK from where I stood (which was always a healthy distance away.... ahem).
But back to the bike: if a competent mechanic does it, it should be fine. The bike started out as a gazillion parts and a bunch of workers put it together in the first place so there is no reason why it cannot be taken apart, put together again and all will be well.
As far as why you, or why your bike- the luck of the draw. Hey, stuff happens and it is usually pretty random as to who gets what (both good and bad). Hey, as I remember, that guy I worked with said the same thing.... 'Why me? Why my a$*#*le?'.
;) :D
Brian
Yeah, I guess that's good news.
Even if it's all repaired for free, I'll admit that I still have doubts about the future of my bike. Something about having the engine removed and split open for the repairs. Will it still run the same? Will there be new strange vibrations?
Will I be able to go on a long trip and not suffer from "strange noise anxiety" when miles from home.
...and...why me? I really thought they'd find the problem in the clutch, since I don't do clutch-less shifting and I've used synthetic oil since the break-in, I can't understand why I've got a transmission problem. I've even got tamper resistant oil caps. Is it something I'm doing wrong or was my bike just made on a Monday when they were short handed at the factory (does that happen in Japan?).
Yes, things could be much worse, but I really wish they were better. :P :-\ :(
I guess I'm just in a glass half empty mood today.
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But back to the bike: if a competent mechanic does it, it should be fine. The bike started out as a gazillion parts and a bunch of workers put it together in the first place so there is no reason why it cannot be taken apart, put together again and all will be well.
Brian
It is that "competent mechanic" part that scares the **** out of me.... they seem to be few and far between as many are simply lazy, others too preoccupied and a large chunk of them simply don't care, don't know and don't love motorcycles.
If I did not do my own work, there is nobody within 100 miles of me I would trust to do it, so I likely would not even own a motorcycle, or I would simply have to buy a new one everytime the tires wore out-much like I do with my 4 wheeled vehicles and that would get spendy in a hurry on the bike. the cars- I barely drive them it'll be 7-8 years before I wear out the tires---and that is a sad reality of 30+ years experience in this local with all the local dealerships/shops and the lack of talent that parades through the service departments---some of that is very much managements fault for handcuffing and underpaying the very good ones....
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I used to have a guy who worked for me go in for hemorrhoid surgery and he had almost the identical thoughts: Will it run the same? Will there be strange, new vibrations? Will I still be able to go for a long ride? Hey, as I remember, that guy I worked with said the same thing.... 'Why me? Why my a$*#*le?'.
;) :D
Brian
Thanks Brian that cheered me right up! The glass is full! :thumbs:
It is that "competent mechanic" part that scares the **** out of me.... they seem to be few and far between as many are simply lazy, others too preoccupied and a large chunk of them simply don't care, don't know and don't love motorcycles.
......-and that is a sad reality of 30+ years experience in this local with all the local dealerships/shops and the lack of talent that parades through the service departments---some of that is very much managements fault for handcuffing and underpaying the very good ones....
Well, that didn't last long...my glass is drained again. :'( ....woe is me.. :-\ :(
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Well, now there we agree, unfortunately. The world runs on mediocrity or worse, and average; NASA got the cream of the crop so our local dealers..... well, they got what was left. Now that said, I happen to have an excellent dealer close by (20 minutes away) comprised of professionals who work to professional standards. I have complete confidence in them and always have (since I was short- they opened in 1947 and I was not even up to short yet then). But I also understand that not everyone, and unfortunately, perhaps a lot of folks, does not have access to such a dealership. And there are other motorcycle dealerships around that are.... questionable on their best days so I really do understand the wariness of having a machine so complex as a C-14 broken down to its innards and reassembled.
So given the reality of the situation, perhaps you are right to be wary Marty. ?? My sympathies in advance but I still hope it will go smoothly for you.
Brian
It is that "competent mechanic" part that scares the **** out of me.... they seem to be few and far between as many are simply lazy, others too preoccupied and a large chunk of them simply don't care, don't know and don't love motorcycles.
If I did not do my own work, there is nobody within 100 miles of me I would trust to do it, so I likely would not even own a motorcycle, or I would simply have to buy a new one everytime the tires wore out-much like I do with my 4 wheeled vehicles and that would get spendy in a hurry on the bike. the cars- I barely drive them it'll be 7-8 years before I wear out the tires---and that is a sad reality of 30+ years experience in this local with all the local dealerships/shops and the lack of talent that parades through the service departments---some of that is very much managements fault for handcuffing and underpaying the very good ones....
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Kawasaki district rep was on my phone for quite a while this morning. Said he got a call from Arkansas, and the place it was going to next week. Long story short, there is a clause that mentions ware and such including loss of compression. I pushed and they pushed back saying it is worn. At the end of the day they are covering the basket, I will pick up the labor. Leaving it at the dealership it is currently at. They seem like good people able to complete the task.
Quietly praying the basket is the only thing Making noise. Have little strength for round 2. After talking to kawasaki, since there is the ware clause in the wording, I am questioning the rest of the extend contract, .
I do know if there is still a noise, it will be going elsewhere, to where I was going to bring it next week.
Guess I was foolish for thinking it was a warranty, vs a contract thing. But they covered my windshield assembly, that has the same milage on it. Not sure the difference.
Backorder part changed status, so they were calling to get an update. Not sure how long it will be.
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This appears to be some good news. At least they are buying the part. I bet the labor rate there is less than others closer to home. Now just hope the part comes sooner than later!
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A backordered part leaves the question... Are enough of these wearing out to use available stock(which we have not heard of) or none are wearing out which would indicate yours was a defective anomaly.
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The fiber discs are wear items. I could see the steels not being covered if you allowed your worn fibers to warp them of something, but if the clutch basket is defective, that's not a wear item. That's a defect. Think of all the brake rotors they have warrantied. I'm not cool with how they're handling it.
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call mark at Kawasaki customer support he'll fix the situation.... 866-802-9381
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call mark at Kawasaki customer support he'll fix the situation.... 866-802-9381
that's just mean :rotflmao:
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When a wire wore through, blowing the main fuse, Kawasaki reimbursed me for paying a Honda dealer to get me back on the road. That is explicitly stated in the warranty as non covered. Supposed to have a Kawasaki dealer fix.
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no news yet, still waiting on this super common ware and tare part to come from japan. ::)
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:banghead: still no part yet
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ebay?
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:banghead: still no part yet
Yep, me too. Different part, but same waiting game. (http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/sighing-and-waiting/smileys-sighing-and-waiting-205679.gif)
At least my service manager calls weekly with updates. :)
Even if there is nothing to update. :'(
I've got my hopes up for mid September? (http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/fingers-crossed-smiley-emoticon.gif)
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call mark at Kawasaki customer support he'll fix the situation.... 866-802-9381
has mark been called?
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Almost every Honda Valkyrie I know of has the clutch damper plate go at around 50k. The rivets fail. No warranty coverage, considered a wear item. I would assume all the 1500 Gold Wings from the same era would have that same problem. So I would consider 87k on my clutch to be pretty decent. That said, plenty of C14's have gone over the 100k mark without any clutch problems.
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Yes, every single terrible name he could have been called, at least going by what I get from those who have actually spoken with him (I have never had any contact with the man).
:-)
Brian
has mark been called?
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has mark been called?
Yes, every single terrible name he could have been called, at least going by what I get from those who have actually spoken with him (I have never had any contact with the man).
Fairly common name, but I wonder if the warranty Mark is the same Mark that is seemingly the head of ROK?
The latter was helpful to me, and he showed up at the COG National (just before the dinner).
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I do not know if it is the same Mark or not.
And I was just making a small pun; as I said, I have never met nor had any type of exchange with the gentleman Mark who works or worked at Kawasaki- I was merely referencing what some others had said, with such vehemence, in the past. I of course have absolutely no opinion of the man- I usually try to wait and like or dislike people after I actually have some type of interaction with them ;) ;D
Brian
Fairly common name, but I wonder if the warranty Mark is the same Mark that is seemingly the head of ROK?
The latter was helpful to me, and he showed up at the COG National (just before the dinner).
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.....as I said, I have never met nor had any type of exchange with the gentleman Mark who works or worked at Kawasaki- I was merely referencing what some others had said, with such vehemence, in the past. I of course have absolutely no opinion of the man- I usually try to wait and like or dislike people after I actually have some type of interaction with them ;) ;D
Yeah Brian, like you I was just going by what others have said before. It was just a lot easier to quote you instead of doing the digging and research through old posts. It's hot here and I'm lazy.
And I was just making a small pun;...
I'm not sure any of your puns are small, but maybe you are just sparing us the really big ones?...and that's why you say that? ;D
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well, the bike is home, picked up yesterday , finally, with a new windshield motor assembly and clutch basket.
had the slave cylinder seal replaced for pm at the same time, that was out of pocket, and labor on the basket was 1.4hrs. total bill was like $160 so not bad at all
no miles, started it and loaded it on the trailer for the trip home, will know more in the next few days.
i was pleased to see the tabs on the plastic were all where they should be, most times they are not installed correctly. nice to see the attention to detail.
sure hope its all good.
I should take a picture of my " should go 15k miles pr4 gt" that were on the bike for 10 days, lol they are tore up for sure. ;D edge to edge close to the bars.
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well, the bike is home, picked up yesterday...
Ah ha... so back ordered parts do eventually show up.
I sure hope mine were on the same boat as yours were.
(https://sms2everyone.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/hispanic-boy-crossing-fingers.jpg)
Let us know how it tests out.
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About time for some good news Joel.
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About time for some good news Joel.
For sure, now if the days of rain will go away. Lol. Figures
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_hg8c6QcExrLTFjc1M3TGZjWjg/view?usp=docslist_api
That link might work for an audio file, let me know if it doesn't.
After 6 weeks or so, been since the first week of July, the bike is exactly like it was, same sounds, ugly, clanging.
This blows after being told it was fixed and quiet and perfect.
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/6qn3fi5790wx3mh/Bike%20noise.m4a?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/6qn3fi5790wx3mh/Bike%20noise.m4a?dl=0)
This work?
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Your first link works.
Man, that really sucks Dude.
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After 6 weeks or so, been since the first week of July, the bike is exactly like it was, same sounds, ugly, clanging.
This blows after being told it was fixed and quiet and perfect.
Hmmm..... maybe they misdiagnosed it and you do have the same problem as I do. (broken 4th gear)
I couldn't tell from your audio file what was going on, or even if I was hearing a noise or just audio distortion.
If I am hearing what I'm supposed to be hearing then it does sound higher pitched or a tinnyer than mine, either clutch basket or cam chain type sound. Tell you what, put the oem muffler back on and let me hear it again. :o :rotflmao: I had a tinny sound coming out of my DR650 that had me concerned when I first got it, but I could only hear it when I was riding it down the road. It didn't make the noise when stopped. Turned out to be the license plate vibrating on the cross over bar for the panniers. Bent the plate up and no more problem noises. I wish it was that simple for you and I now.
I'm sorry to hear this (<--see what I did there) Joel, it does suck. I hope yours turns out better than mine (simpler).
My situation has really got me depressed. Once mine is fixed I'll probably get rid of it as I'll never trust it again more than a state away from home.
Trouble is, no matter what bike I consider as a replacement, there is something I don't like about it. It might be different if there was a new special heavy duty gear set that they were putting in my bike, but I'm pretty sure that it'll be the same parts that proved to be inadequate in the first place. That doesn't inspire me to take off on a long trip. Just the thought of removing all my farkles to trade it in is depressing.
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I hear ya Marty, no distortion, engine Rev is smooth, this was taken above the oil fill location. Anything not smooth sounding is ugly noises and not suppose to be there. Not distortion, hope that makes sense.
Seriously questions about should keep mine too. I have spent tons and tons in maintaining and going way above the average guys maintenance. To only get told my bike is worn out? Guess there is a limited milage warranty, no clue what it is, but is this noise a fight too?
My bike flies, handles like a dream, and feels as good as day one thanks to all the effort and attention to detail from my independent mechanic. Sure would suck to start over
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a link for reference http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg245493#msg245493 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg245493#msg245493)
OK I brought my C14 home today, without the plastic installed as I wanted to do some things while it's all off.
My fourth gear was replaced under warranty. One tooth came off and every time it came around there was that "Knock"
that I heard. So far I can only say that it sounds much better. I have only ridden it from the end of the trailer and then into my garage
so I won't have a complete report for awhile.
While I was at the dealer I took a cell phone photo of the broken gear before the dealer sends it off to Kawasaki (?).
He gave me the tooth or cog if you prefer.
(https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-SxNLR79/0/L/i-SxNLR79-L.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-SxNLR79/0/O/i-SxNLR79.jpg)
When I purchased this bike new (2010 Model) in March of 2011, the first ride home from the dealer was only 40 miles. Two blocks from my house I heard a loud POP followed by a click click click as I traveled the remaining blocks. I managed to put a 5/16 machine bolt (not a pointy lag screw but a flat ended machine bolt) right through the back tire. I've carried that bolt in my tool bag ever since (approx 43,000 miles) and have not had another bolt in tire incident since. I plan to do the same thing with the broken fourth gear tooth as obviously the mighty mad powuh of Kipass needs some mechanical voodoo assistance. Wish me luck!
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a link for reference http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg245493#msg245493 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg245493#msg245493)
OK I brought my C14 home today, without the plastic installed as I wanted to do some things while it's all off.
My fourth gear was replaced under warranty. One tooth came off and every time it came around there was that "Knock"
that I heard. So far I can only say that it sounds much better. I have only ridden it from the end of the trailer and then into my garage
so I won't have a complete report for awhile.
While I was at the dealer I took a cell phone photo of the broken gear before the dealer sends it off to Kawasaki (?).
He gave me the tooth or cog if you prefer.
(https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-SxNLR79/0/L/i-SxNLR79-L.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-SxNLR79/0/O/i-SxNLR79.jpg)
When I purchased this bike new (2010 Model) in March of 2011, the first ride home from the dealer was only 40 miles. Two blocks from my house I heard a loud POP followed by a click click click as I traveled the remaining blocks. I managed to put a 5/16 machine bolt (not a pointy lag screw but a flat ended machine bolt) right through the back tire. I've carried that bolt in my tool bag ever since (approx 43,000 miles) and have not had another bolt in tire incident since. I plan to do the same thing with the broken fourth gear tooth as obviously the mighty mad powuh of Kipass needs some mechanical voodoo assistance. Wish me luck!
Man, that is one robust looking gear. Can't imagine what would cause that to fail.
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a link for reference http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg245493#msg245493 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg245493#msg245493)
OK I brought my C14 home today, without the plastic installed as I wanted to do some things while it's all off.
My fourth gear was replaced under warranty. One tooth came off and every time it came around there was that "Knock"
that I heard. So far I can only say that it sounds much better. I have only ridden it from the end of the trailer and then into my garage
so I won't have a complete report for awhile.
While I was at the dealer I took a cell phone photo of the broken gear before the dealer sends it off to Kawasaki (?).
He gave me the tooth or cog if you prefer.
(https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-SxNLR79/0/L/i-SxNLR79-L.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-SxNLR79/0/O/i-SxNLR79.jpg)
When I purchased this bike new (2010 Model) in March of 2011, the first ride home from the dealer was only 40 miles. Two blocks from my house I heard a loud POP followed by a click click click as I traveled the remaining blocks. I managed to put a 5/16 machine bolt (not a pointy lag screw but a flat ended machine bolt) right through the back tire. I've carried that bolt in my tool bag ever since (approx 43,000 miles) and have not had another bolt in tire incident since. I plan to do the same thing with the broken fourth gear tooth as obviously the mighty mad powuh of Kipass needs some mechanical voodoo assistance. Wish me luck!
wow... bad metalurgy....
I would have been asking why they didn't replace the mating gear also...as it was likely compromised, maybe invisibly, but no way to know...
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wow... bad metalurgy....
I would have been asking why they didn't replace the mating gear also...as it was likely compromised, maybe invisibly, but no way to know...
I was thinking the same thing
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wow... bad metalurgy....
I would have been asking why they didn't replace the mating gear also...as it was likely compromised, maybe invisibly, but no way to know...
They did, I just didn't ask to take a photo of it, they replaced
13262-0793 GEAR,INPUT 3RD&4TH,20T&22T with 13262-0793 GEAR,INPUT 3RD&4TH,20T&22T
as well as replaced 13262-0726 GEAR,OUTPUT 4TH,34T (prev photo) with 13262-0750 GEAR,OUTPUT 4TH,34T
...as well as a page long list of gaskets, O rings, seals, oil and filter etc.
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Glad to see they got it sorted. Took 'em long enough.
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Glad to see they got it sorted.
Thanks Jimmy!
Took 'em long enough.
The gear was on back order, and I wasn't pushy, I didn't do the squeaky wheel thingie. I knew (OK,hoped) it was going to be warranty work and and I realized that out of financial necessity it would be low on the service department's priority list. Despite the dealer bashing (stealership talk) the truth is we really need them to stay in business (OK, most of them anyway) and our hobby/predilection (what ever this is that we do) would be up the creek without them IMO. I really appreciate their interaction with Kawasaki on my behalf, and the weekly update calls :thumbs: (http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/clapping-happy-smiley-emoticon.gif). Many on here talk tough and give advice about what they would do and give the impression that they would go in banging on the counter demanding their bike be fixed post haste. It wasn't their bike in the shop with the innards spread out all over, it was mine. I'm more of a carrot person than a stick person I guess. I don't complain about my hamburgers looking a little lopsided either, lest I get this (https://youtu.be/k6Dvpw03BNY). At least that's how I start off in the beginning. Regardless, I want my dealer (http://www.grapevinekawasaki.com/) to stay in business and be happy (as I honestly believe he wants me to be) as most of the dealers in the area are getting bought up by one corp. (http://www.freedompowersportstx.com/) and if this keeps up there won't be much competition in the area.
I'll do more follow up in a few weeks.
Joel (JS_racer), you're up! What tell you got for us?
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They did, I just didn't ask to take a photo of it, they replaced
13262-0793 GEAR,INPUT 3RD&4TH,20T&22T with 13262-0793 GEAR,INPUT 3RD&4TH,20T&22T
as well as replaced 13262-0726 GEAR,OUTPUT 4TH,34T (prev photo) with 13262-0750 GEAR,OUTPUT 4TH,34T
...as well as a page long list of gaskets, O rings, seals, oil and filter etc.
good
they were proactive at least.
glad to hear that, so mnay places just don't take that extra step..
nice you got it fixed, best wishes, and Kudos to your service guys...
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Glad to see they got it sorted. Took 'em long enough.
Probably didn't help that I bet they have ever seen that happen before on a C14 (because it is a rare bike with an even more rare failure).
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Probably didn't help that I bet they have ever seen that happen before on a C14 (because it is a rare bike with an even more rare failure).
True dat. All my Kawasaki bikes have been bullet proof.
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Probably didn't help that I bet they have ever seen that happen before on a C14 (because it is a rare bike with an even more rare failure).
who knows? do you think everyone that owns a C14 comes here?
id wager to say less than 10% of C14 OWNERS, and even less than that of C10 owners, spanning 20 years of production, don't have a clue this site exists, or care to participate... because why? no problemo...
with that said, the owner experience, coupled with the database, and made publically accessable thru the "interweb", has folks surfacing... if you bought an '86 in '86, you may be old enough to say.. meh, internet? whazzat... or ""I don't do face book..."
times change kids, some don't even own a computer, just abfew years ago we wanted to go "online only" for Concourier, and we found it was not viable...
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I would have loved to see that gear and tooth in person. Judging by the crisp break in the gear, it indicates two things to me (without having actually seen the gear to examine both the broken tooth faces as well as the faces of the adjacent teeth): the gear is extremely hard, at least 58 Rc, which is not a bad thing and actually desirable from a wear point of view, and that the tooth was overloaded in shear, meaning there was too much side force applied to it. Impossibly to say why without the gear and a microscope but it may have been a flaw such as an inclusion or existing stress fracture (an example of catastrophic failure based on a flaw no larger than a grain of sand inside a turbine engine forging is United Airlines flight 232) or, more likely IMO, an external piece of debris being carried through the meshing teeth of the two gears; there just was not room for the teeth and the debris and as the gear is extremely hard (Easy Boys!), it could not embed in either gear tooth so the tooth had to break sideways to provide room.
Glad it all worked out though and you got the bike back in what seems to be good shape. I think all will be well from here on out but then maybe I am more optimistic than you are.... :-)
Brian
a link for reference http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg245493#msg245493 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg245493#msg245493)
OK I brought my C14 home today, without the plastic installed as I wanted to do some things while it's all off.
My fourth gear was replaced under warranty. One tooth came off and every time it came around there was that "Knock"
that I heard. So far I can only say that it sounds much better. I have only ridden it from the end of the trailer and then into my garage
so I won't have a complete report for awhile.
While I was at the dealer I took a cell phone photo of the broken gear before the dealer sends it off to Kawasaki (?).
He gave me the tooth or cog if you prefer.
(https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-SxNLR79/0/L/i-SxNLR79-L.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-SxNLR79/0/O/i-SxNLR79.jpg)
When I purchased this bike new (2010 Model) in March of 2011, the first ride home from the dealer was only 40 miles. Two blocks from my house I heard a loud POP followed by a click click click as I traveled the remaining blocks. I managed to put a 5/16 machine bolt (not a pointy lag screw but a flat ended machine bolt) right through the back tire. I've carried that bolt in my tool bag ever since (approx 43,000 miles) and have not had another bolt in tire incident since. I plan to do the same thing with the broken fourth gear tooth as obviously the mighty mad powuh of Kipass needs some mechanical voodoo assistance. Wish me luck!
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who knows? do you think everyone that owns a C14 comes here?
Of course not. And this site might not be a truly representative random sample- there could be confounds based on savvy/age/income/etc (I took 9 credit hours of college statistics... unfortunately it was required). But it is probably close enough for some reasonable extrapolation to overall reliability and what is or is not a common failure, wouldn't you say?
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who knows? do you think everyone that owns a C14 comes here?
If they are wise, they do... Where else can they go to have this much fun?
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Well......... ;D ;D
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......more likely IMO, an external piece of debris being carried through the meshing teeth of the two gears; there just was not room for the teeth and the debris and as the gear is extremely hard (Easy Boys!), it could not embed in either gear tooth so the tooth had to break sideways to provide room.
ehem...so you're saying that you suspect I do sloppy oil changes with dirt and debris all over the end of my funnel?.. ??? :'( :battle:
( ;D )
Just to keep things stirred up :stirpot: while we await a report back from Joel (JS_racer)..
I had been using Rotella T6 ever since the break-in period was over, however just before this trip (COG & MSTA Nationals) I switched to Mobil 1 4T. Do you suppose that Mobil 1 4T might have debris in suspension?
...my anecdotal evidence and Brian's opinion of what happened supports YES! :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot: :rotflmao:
If they are wise, they do... Where else can they go to have this much fun?
EXACTLY!
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I usually do not comment on another man's funnel..... not because I think it is wrong or bad, I am simply hetero-funnel and have no interest in other funnels.
And 'dirty oil' ain't quite it- it would have to be a fairly large piece of very hard, stout (Boys!) debris that would have never made it through the pick- up screen and the oil pump.
It also may have been a flaw from heat treatment and actually pre- destined to break at some point without any excessive external force. As I said, going by the fracture surface, such as I could see it from the photo, it looked like a very hard, very fine- grained steel. Those types are almost always oil or air quenched, with air quenching being the MUCH, MUCH kinder, gentler process. But it is more expensive so guess which one is usually used? The rapid quench of oil tend to create a lot of localized stresses in protrusions (Boys!) and a part such as a gear will sometimes show micro- cracking at the radius of the bottom of the tooth because it is the smallest 'corner' and a natural stress riser. Such a crack is a future failure waiting to happen.
The other way around all of this is to use a semi- heat treatable steel; these are steels that only partially harden from heat treatment through the whole section but they are usually pack hardened, which leaves an extremely hard outer surface. Sorta' like cow dung laying in the field for a while: hard on the outside but soft and yielding on the inside. Fantastic material for things such as axles, larger gears (cannot have the pack hardening go all the way through a tooth) but for some reason, the Japanese do not seem to be big fans of the stuff. ?? And the fracture area on a piece of that kind of steel will clearly show the outer, harder 'skin' as well as the larger, rougher grain of the internal part of the break.
Brian
ehem...so you're saying that you suspect I do sloppy oil changes with dirt and debris all over the end of my funnel?.. ??? :'( :battle:
( ;D )
Just to keep things stirred up :stirpot: while we await a report back from Joel (JS_racer)..
I had been using Rotella T6 ever since the break-in period was over, however just before this trip (COG & MSTA Nationals) I switched to Mobil 1 4T. Do you suppose that Mobil 1 4T might have debris in suspension?
...my anecdotal evidence and Brian's opinion of what happened supports YES! :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot: :rotflmao:
EXACTLY!
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....the fracture area on a piece of that kind of steel will clearly show the outer, harder 'skin' as well as the larger, rougher grain of the internal part of the break.
It looks that way to me in person, but I'm certainly no metallurgist and these photos don't show it very well. One edge appears to have suffered some additional post break trauma.
(click on photo for larger)
(https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-fST8Qb5/0/S/i-fST8Qb5-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-fST8Qb5/0/O/i-fST8Qb5.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-knRf528/0/S/i-knRf528-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-knRf528/0/O/i-knRf528.jpg)
(https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-8Q7WTbs/0/S/i-8Q7WTbs-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-8Q7WTbs/0/O/i-8Q7WTbs.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-MMR5Qdh/0/S/i-MMR5Qdh-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-MMR5Qdh/0/O/i-MMR5Qdh.jpg)
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OP can speak for himself but........
Before the bike went to the next dealership over a month ago- I heard it in person and the noise was definitely louder
I then pulled the oil filter off and took it apart (it was like 4 tampon pads glued to a piece of plastic with no pop off provision.....and yes it was an oe Kawasaki filter---wtf did they do with their former pleated filter like every other filter on the market)---so..........OP will have to post up that picture and the picture of how much metal and aluminum rolled out of the filter when turned upside down--- I have never seen so much metal come out of a filter before and I have seen tons of blown up engines and filters.
At any rate, so I put a new filter back on and hauled it to this other Kaw dealer about 80 miles the other way from the previous dealer... a dealer the OP took it to immediately after the clutch basket was replaced and the noise was still there, a dealer where the OP was told to just drive it until it blows up, then it will be covered.... (it was not my idea to go there)
right off the jump the hack mechanic.....jumped to the conclusion that he was so good he knew exactly what the issue was just by hearing the symptoms and then hearing the bike....
He claimed; A shift fork was bent and worn out from abuse, not covered............then he got defensive when questioned about it and told that it shifts like buttery smooth(he rode it and didn't dispute it shifts smooth as any bike should) and surely would not if the shift fork was bent and abused.......... and where is all this aluminum and steel coming from? (shown the baggy with the filter taken apart--which I told the OP to not hand over....we need it later!)--he strictly regardless of what was said or questioned went back to his opinion that he is so fucking good that he can diagnose internal engine noises without even looking at them....Maybe he should head over to NASA or Lockheed etc.... the government surely would have job for him at the FAA to listen to airplanes so none ever fail again right....because he is just that good........ NOT--dumb moron!
At any rate-- Ma Kaw saw fit to send out a field rep who rode it, and disagreed with this tech whom vehemently argued he was right and it was from abuse.... He even put in the notes sent to ma kaw.... " sh*t wears out on these high mileage bikes, do people really expect everything is covered and lasts forever" siting it has a bent and worn out shift fork from abuse and it is now hitting the side of a gear, thus the noise only on the sidestand
So at any rate the field rep said no, I do not agree with you, the tech buried his head up his ass arguing he was right. In the end, The outcome was to get approval to pull the engine and take it apart and then "we" (meaning that tech with his head up his ass and a point to prove he is right) will make a determination- but that meant the OP was on the hook for atleast $1000 in disassembly costs, because we all know regardless what this "tech" found he would make sure a shift fork was bent and he was right and thus it would be denied.
ie--if not approved then the owner would be out somewhere upwards of $1000 and have boxes of pieces and hope he has them all, or have to hand over thousands more and hope they actually fix it---obviously that would be more than the bike is even worth at that point.
I called ma Kaw last week and talked to them for about 75 minutes, a little late in the game and was told as much, but..... there is some slim hope that possibly "my guy" there can present this to someone higher than himself and get a positive resolution.......... I will not enlighten you with all the details, but it would entail me doing all the work as a Kawasaki employee--------so much cooperation and giving will be required thus the "slim hope"
So today an Ebay engine was purchased, and I will be pulling the old, and taking it apart to find the real problem, but the ebay engine will get a full service before going in and that will have to be "the engine" until and unless "my guy" comes through....
But this atleast nets a real return for that $1000, and my time is mostly free, so in the end he gets more than what he would have anywhere else......well except maybe that original AR dealer where he should have left it to begin with, but hindsight is 20/20.... and the cost factor to haul it back now and then go back later to get it outweighs the cost of the replacement engine (apparently)
regardless of his (my guy) willingness or ability to push this through higher ups, this issue will not be dead at this point, I will find the problem and I will push ma kaw to the ends of the earth to make it right and based on the dealers responses and ineptness..... well lets hope they get reprimanded at the very least........
A bunch of greedy good for nothing idiots at both the last couple places and the 6+ other local dealers who were called and the owner was basically told to **** off---but in a much nicer way, like "we won't get to it for atleast 6 weeks, our customers are our priority and it won't be covered anyways, it is worn out"
I greatly look forward to taking this apart, documenting it and then going after everyone involved!
I also love a good fight and a good challenge, and I am like a rabid dog..... I never back down until and unless I am wrong........
I also look forward to seeing this "new" clutch basket.......wouldn't it be a hoot if they never installed one...
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It looks that way to me in person, but I'm certainly no metallurgist and these photos don't show it very well. One edge appears to have suffered some additional post break trauma.
(click on photo for larger)
(https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-fST8Qb5/0/S/i-fST8Qb5-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-fST8Qb5/0/O/i-fST8Qb5.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-knRf528/0/S/i-knRf528-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-knRf528/0/O/i-knRf528.jpg)
(https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-8Q7WTbs/0/S/i-8Q7WTbs-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-8Q7WTbs/0/O/i-8Q7WTbs.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-MMR5Qdh/0/S/i-MMR5Qdh-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-MMR5Qdh/0/O/i-MMR5Qdh.jpg)
I have seen the engagement dogs break off before and once even have one get wedged in the shift drum locking the bike into one lone gear as the shift drum could no longer rotate...... but I have never seen the tooth of one of the gears break off----and I have seen a ton of broken transmissions.
I had this oddity come this past summer...........a con rod just broke right off-no spun bearing or anything- the rod just broke....and it is hard to say why, but I suspect metallurgy problems. But not knowing all the history of the bike and its use- maybe the thing saw redline all the time, even worse, no load redline?- But this was on a track bike, so no warranty worries on this....whew !
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I've only met Joel once, seemed like a very nice guy to me. Regardless, for the sake of argument let's pretend he's an asshat, he still wouldn't deserve the treatment many of the Kawasaki dealers have given him. If "these high mileage bikes" are too worn out at less than 100 thousand miles then Kawasaki shouldn't offer unlimited mileage extended warranties. Tires, spark plugs, brake pads and rotors, clutch plates, and maybe even clutch baskets (maybe) are wear items, the rest should be covered. Period.
I'm glad my dealer isn't one of them (or anything like them).
I'm also glad you are in Joel's corner Lloyd. Best wishes to you and Joel with this mess.
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I don't think he is an asshat,
Me on the otherhand, I make no qualms about calling out anyone and everyone for anything I see fit as; stupid, idiotic, incorrect, blatant lies etc..., so I have zero doubt many think I am an asshat........ but I am the asshat who gets sh*t done and gets it done properly.
So this should be a ton of fun!
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So this should be a ton of fun!
(http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s410/Dalek_Skeet/Smilies/dGeek/evil_zps63325b25.gif) :popcorn: :popcorn:
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thanks for getting involved, and being proactive in the process, I noted on the warrenty thread, prior to reading your comments here, all good, now there will be 4 people total hounding Kaw for proper service.
Please don't dis the warrenty, or the pricing I worked to get for our group, it ain't the paper, its the dealer... plain and simple.
I pretty much agree that the douche tech is going to "make his point" now, nd seriously hose that bike to suit his credabilty, very sad.
all I can say is I was lucky to have had quality service and dealers so far, especially the dealership that I giving us extended warranties for less than half what Kaw wants for them.... I prefer to mintain my bike, but when a covered item breaks, its up to the covereage to handle it.
so fa, so good for me, and. lot of other folks also...
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So perhaps this should go here.....and all my fun will be taken away....... That would be a welcome surprise if someone actually did what they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it
But the engine is paid for and on the way already....kind of a dollar late and day short kind of deal, or in this case about 4 months late and lots of dollars short---and honestly, I still want to take apart the other engine and see first hand what is actually wrong......... I sure the **** don't trust anyone else to do it- they have all proven to be liars and not care.
Unfortunately it has not been just one dealership, it is both the last two and then the treatment by numerous others who just simply didn't want it at all and pretty much said........it'll take 6+ weeks for us to get to it, our customers are first priority and it is worn out anyways so it won't be covered.........more or less shooing him and his bike out the door setting the stage that it won't be covered regardless what they find
So yes I appreciate your efforts, and maybe possibly this will get some positive resolution without me flying out to CA with a box of parts post disassembly and raising hell....damn and I was so looking forward to wasting my time and money
"just so you know, and maybe shed some light on this particular instance, I am currently in conversation with that member, and I believe Fred Harmon will be also shortly. The issue is with the particular dealership, and the way THEY have teken this on, it is not an issue with the KPP warrenty. That warranty specifically covers the broken part, and replacement. The dealership has stepped outside the acceptable realms of their obligations, and without giving more specifics here, I will say that what they told the person, and how they reported and documented it, was unacceptable. I am attempting to assist, and hopefully Fred will also, and get his issues brought before kawasaki, involving the appropriate personnel.
There are expected standards issued by Kawasaki as to obligations to provide service, this dealer is highly risking some flak, and in a nutshell, could be ostracized for their actions....
its unfortunate that a couple seedy sales outlets ruin a persons purchase experience, we are attempting to assist."
[/I agree, on the seedy.....they seem to multiply faster than one can get rid of them. And yes I agree on it is the dealers fault not the piece of papers fault.....my point was at some dealers and probably too many- the paper is worthless---not that what you offered was worthless.... it is a dealer issue, unfortunately too many dealers are just like these in my experience. But the wording is certainly ambiguous and open to much debate and interpretation, how any dealer interprets it....well that is the great unknown-- of course I see that the guy with the 4th gear got his covered and can read others did too....but there are far too many issues just like the one in discussion where the dealers simply read the paper in any manner they wish to not have it covered, so too vague IMO
b]
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Actually, those are outstanding photos and clearly show the failure mode; note the two sides of the broken face and that one is fairly flat while the other is more radiused. The break started on more shallow side and the more radiused side actually bent and shifted before actually separating from the gear body- that is why there are small flaps and shiny places on that edge, the tooth was already moving before it separated.
It looks like through- hardening steel that was oil or maybe brine quenched; more likely oil IMO. Given that close up, it is not has hard as I initially thought either.
Because it has such a clean break that shows absolutely no shift or movement on the starting side, I would say it was a small flaw that started the process off. If there is undue or excessive wear on the contact face, it might be a combination of a small flaw in the fillet coupled with a gear to the high side of tolerance that placed too much pressure on the teeth in normal use. Otherwise, it was just a flaw that eventually crept across the entire fillet and caused the break directly.
Either way, the odds are incredible that you would get another flawed replacement gear so I would put it out of my mind.
And again, nice photos!
Brian
It looks that way to me in person, but I'm certainly no metallurgist and these photos don't show it very well. One edge appears to have suffered some additional post break trauma.
(click on photo for larger)
(https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-fST8Qb5/0/S/i-fST8Qb5-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-fST8Qb5/0/O/i-fST8Qb5.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-knRf528/0/S/i-knRf528-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-knRf528/0/O/i-knRf528.jpg)
(https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-8Q7WTbs/0/S/i-8Q7WTbs-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-8Q7WTbs/0/O/i-8Q7WTbs.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-MMR5Qdh/0/S/i-MMR5Qdh-S.jpg) (https://fartymarty.smugmug.com/photos/i-MMR5Qdh/0/O/i-MMR5Qdh.jpg)
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OK, here is a summary of my story.
While on a trip to Harrison Arkansas in June 2015 I heard a noise while riding. I looked up the closest dealership and found Clay Maxey, where I brought it. They were able to re-produce the noise and as soon as they heard it they shut the bike off and began to try to figure out where it was coming from. They were great to work with and their only concern was for me and my bike, being so far away from my home in Minnesota.
They took off panels and found that the clutch basket seemed to be bad, but they couldn’t say that this was ALL that was wrong with the bike; this was just the one thing they could locate in a short timeframe while I was on a trip. They advised me to bring it to a local dealer as soon as I got home to address the clutch basket and to see if they could reproduce the other more serious noises.
As soon as I got home I had a list of local dealers to contact. I have had all of my maintenance done by an independent shop, or I have done it myself since the purchase of the bike.
Since I returned home at the end of June, I asked my wife to call the different dealers in the twin cities area to see what their current waiting time would be to get the bike in to look at it, since it is right in the prime of riding season in MN.
While calling the list of dealers she heard, on many occasions, that they were about 6 weeks out and then they would ask if the bike was purchased from them and when she said no they would say that their customers came first and they could look at the bike, but it would be used as fill in work and only after their regular customers had been helped. Some said they would need ALL the maintenance records first, but then the same, it would be used all fill in work after their customers were helped first.
When she spoke with the Plainview dealer they said they would be able to get the bike in the next week and would be happy to look at it, as did the North Mankato dealer. We opted to take it to the Plainview dealer because we had an acquaintance that brought their bike there and thought they did a good job on the work they had completed. With that referral off we went with the bike to Plainview dealer. As soon as I got the bike there and they looked at it I heard, “That’s a lot of plastic” and “That’s a bunch of miles”. Had I known then what I know now, I would have not left the bike there.
After a few days I was told that they would not cover the clutch basket under warranty because it was “worn out”. I asked them how they knew it was worn out and they responded that the bike has a bunch of miles and stuff wears out. We contacted the warranty hotline number and spoke to them and they said that the notes in the file state that the part is “worn out” and if I don’t like that assessment then I am free to bring it to any other Kawasaki dealer for a different opinion. After a few calls and conversations Kawasaki said they would cover the clutch basket part, not the labor. So we had Plainview install the new clutch basket, all the while stating that it was not known if this was the sole cause of the noise I had heard. I told them how to reproduce the noise and they said they got it and the part is ordered and on the way. Additionally at this same time the windshield stopped working and this was replaced under warranty, with this fix there was a tab broken on the nose plate and now that rattles and is not set as it was when I dropped it off. When I picked up the bike, 7 weeks later because there was not a clutch basket in the US or Europe, they assured me that it was fixed and they were unable to create the noise. They said all fixed and it was clear to ride it. I took it out on a ride the following weekend and within a few minutes I knew that the issue was not fixed. I contacted the regional Kawasaki guy and let him know that it was not fixed with the clutch basket and he said I can take the bike to North Mankato dealer for them to assess.
On August 22nd we brought the bike down to the dealer in North Mankato and we were able to reproduce the noise for them in the parking lot. Sam Miller and another gentleman (service manager maybe) came out and listened to the bike make the noise and said that they could not say for sure what it was but ride it until it “breaks” and then they would be able to get it covered and fixed. Since they were not sure what the issue was if I kept riding it and it “broke” then they would be able to more easily figure out why and what happened.
So we brought the bike back to the house and began wondering if I should ride it or not. I brought it to my independent mechanic and we pulled the oil filter off (it was not changed at Plainview after they installed the new clutch basket) and cut that open and in the pan saw many, many flecks of silver and the oil was very silver looking also. This told me that I should not ride the bike at all. After this I called the North Mankato dealer and they said bring it down and they would be able to fix it. We brought the bike down there and I was able to make the noise for them, again, in the parking lot. The service manager (maybe) said he knew it was a bent shift fork and that was not covered under warranty because I could have caused that by missing a shift and that is what it is. I have never missed a shift on this bike and I am not hard on the bike, I have done all maintenance at shorter intervals. Had I known then, what I know now, I would not have left the bike there either. They decided to have the regional Kawasaki guy come to the shop and ride it before they did anything with the bike. After the regional Kawasaki guy rode the bike he was not under the impression that it was a bent shift fork, he stated that it shifted effortlessly and that was not likely the issue. After his visit the dealer called and requested that we give them the OK to move forward with trying to find out what was wrong with the bike. My wife called and was informed that they needed our approval to move forward because until they get in there they won’t know what is wrong, she asked about it being covered under warranty and he said they were not saying it is or not covered, but some things just get “worn out”. It felt like the dealer had already made up their mind that it would not be covered with the “worn out” statement. Come to find out that on the file for the bike the dealer wrote “Shi* wares out on these high mileage bikes, do people really expect everything is covered and should last forever” A different contact recommended that we get the bike out of that dealer as fast as we could with a remark like that, very unprofessional.
At this point, with the dealers here in MN, apparently 80,000 miles on a bike is deemed “worn out” while a dealer in the southern states that’s barely broken in. I do have the option to bring it back down to the dealer in Arkansas, 700 miles from my home, to hope that this could be covered under the extended warranty that I purchased on the bike. But why should I have to do that, why should I have to invest 4 full days of driving, hotel stays, gas for a truck, food expenses, wear and tear on another vehicle to bring it that far from my home, where I don’t know anything about the dealer except they are the only ones that have made me feel like they cared about me and my bike. All the while I have 15 dealers in MN that should be just as happy to do the work and not about how much money they can get if they determine that it is “worn out” and that is a clause in the extended warranty.
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I thought I'd report on my experience and give what I hope is the "wrap up report". I want to give a good review of the dealer where I purchased my C14 and the warranty work they did. However I don't want everybody flocking to them with their warranty work unless I get approval first so that will be delayed a bit. If you've read my previous posts on this thread you'll recall that I was filled with dread and woe. Not so any more. Both Brian and Deziner were correct, I was over worrying it. The bike runs as good as it ever has and I'm not experiencing any strange new vibrations, nor any noises, electrical gremlins, or other irregularities. I rode around the area shifting up and down while listening for any noises that were out of place. I even turned on the outside mic on my Sena to listen. I only heard my top case rattling. Went home and removed it and rode some more and all was well. A few days later I loaded up the bike and went to the COG event in Russellville AR. and put over 1300 miles on it. I put paper towels under it last night after the return home and this morning they were all still dry, no oil leaks. I have to say that I was very pleased.
Now to be honest I might have been more accommodating to the service department than others would or could depending on their mechanical abilities. Because of the lower profit margin on warranty work I tried to make the job for them as easy as I could. When they had all the plastic off I went and picked up the plastic, my windshield, the tip over (Top Block) protection and some associated hardware so it wouldn't be laying around their shop. Then when the bike was repaired I trailer-ed it home semi naked and checked things over before I reinstalled the plastic and made sure everything was routed correctly. My C14 is far from stock with a cruise control and various lights and other wiring going many places that I just didn't think should be the service department's responsibility to restore. I'm sure that some here will disagree with me on that. Had I taken all my farkles to the dealer for the original install of same, well then that would be a different story. I installed them all myself and many are involved or in the way during an engine removal. All the hardware was returned to me in several marked plastic bags and I was only missing one of those little white plastic washers that go under the 5mm screws on the fairing. However, I had plenty of spares on hand because I loose one of those almost every time I remove the fairing. On the paper work it only showed 14.5 hours of labor. I'm assuming that is what the maximum is allowed by Kawasaki for the warranty repair, but I'm amazed by that. It would have taken me a month and it still would have been done wrong. :-[ Naturally in the course of the repair, my coolant was changed, my clutch fluid was bled and replaced (I was dreading having to do that), and my oil and filter were changed.
So in the end I am very happy, discounting the initial bad luck of breaking a gear tooth, I've enjoyed the good luck of a successful warranty covered very complicated (IMO) repair.
I hope that Joel's story will end up as well as mine seems to have. (http://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/images/smilies/fingers%20crossed.gif)
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great news Marty!! :chugbeer:
here is mine as of yesterday
old motor on the way out, replacement in soon
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I saw this my self today picking up my connie, Lloyd kind of showed me around your bike, ( which we used to discuss mine) I hadn't seen one all stripped down before, its truly in good hands!!
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So, Joel, Lloyd,
ANY UPDATES?
I'm assuming the used motor replacement went well?
Any updates on the original transmission?
I know it's winter up there, so there should be some nice indoor time available for a tear down?