Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: Dan in Grand Rapids on July 30, 2015, 06:52:37 AM
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On the way to work my throttle stuck and I had to wait about a half mile to pull over with a semi on my tail. There was smoke coming from the clutch housing. I stopped and unstuck the throttle. It starts fine, but if I put it in first there is no clunk. When I let out the clutch the bike does not move and the engine dies. It concerns me that I can put it in gear and the bike doesn't move. If I fried the clutch (which I think I did), I would think the bike would start moving on its own. Did I kill the transmission too?
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Does the back wheel turn when the bikes on the centerstand?
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If you fried the clutch friction disc(s), I think it would not move as you are experiencing.
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Does the back wheel turn when the bikes on the centerstand?
I can turn the wheel by hand and push the bike when it is in neutral or any gear.
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If you fried the clutch friction disc(s), I think it would not move as you are experiencing.
That is reassuring, thanks.
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That sounds like something other than friction discs.
Unless your clutch has been slipping forever.
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Am I the only guy here that's confused by Dan has written here?
1) Throttle stuck?? WOW with a double cabled throttle system?
2) stuck in front of a semi. Ok but how does this factor in?
3) Smoke coming from the clutch housing? You mean from the engine? Aren't "they" all in there together?
4) engine dies when you let the clutch out in all gears? (On the center stand) You say the bike doesn't move. like NOTHING at all? or it barely moves? Aren't these bikes equipped with a kickstand kill switch? I'm wondering about that. Or maybe you have it on the center stand AND the normal kick stand is down too. If the bike is "stuck" in any gear (with the normal stand down) that switch will kill the engine! (as you let out the clutch) if the ciruit has faild, I don't know wether or not thats a normally open or closed circuit? to even check it?
The guys here are fantastic at "long distance diagnostics" They saved my butt! I think they are gonna need a lot of clarification here... I know I do, However I realize my own limitations
and I only say the kickstand kill switch because how do you kill an engine with no load... unless the gear box is jammed and then you'd hear the engine "load up" and stall in proportion to the clutch being let out. Like I said, I'm confused by what appears here to be conflicts and missing info. BTW if this last description is the case, then logically I would think the clutch is fine?
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I sat on the bike with the kickstand up and it does nothing when I put it in gear. I can put it in gear and take it out easily, so I am thinking it is just the clutch. It acts like it is in neutral even when it is in gear, so maybe the clutch is engaged and stuck. I appreciate all your replies.
Oh, about the stuck throttle. Something on the carb cracked a while ago and I wired it to keep it from sticking. It is part of the carb housing that broke, so it can't just be replaced. I pulled hard to pass a truck and it got stuck on. It looks like I will have to find a better way than just the wire to keep it from sticking.
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What does the fluid look like in the clutch master cylinder?
If it looks like chocolate milk, flush that system and make sure your ports are clear in the reservoir.
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Dan, thanks for explaining the throtlle thing a little more clearly. you obviously need to replace the carb in question.
I feel like I'm beating you up here but I still can't make heads or tails of your description of the clutch / gearbox issues. matter of fact, so much so that I can't figure out how to ask you questions to help me understand, so I apologize if I seem dense here but this is something that should be able to be figured out by solid logic.
I agree with thud300 and I've read posts here of a guy who's return hole in his clutch reservoir was so pluged that when the fluild in the line got hot it expanded enough to disengage the clutch completely. One of the super knowledgable guy's like SISF or MOB (I think it was) said that the splines on the rear wheel can inexplicably disapear and diconnect the engine from the drivetrain (and not make any noise that would indicate it had done it! ) also looking like a clutch problem.
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Dan, thanks for explaining the throtlle thing a little more clearly. you obviously need to replace the carb in question.
I feel like I'm beating you up here but I still can't make heads or tails of your description of the clutch / gearbox issues. matter of fact, so much so that I can't figure out how to ask you questions to help me understand, so I apologize if I seem dense here but this is something that should be able to be figured out by solid logic.
I agree with thud300 and I've read posts here of a guy who's return hole in his clutch reservoir was so pluged that when the fluild in the line got hot it expanded enough to disengage the clutch completely. One of the super knowledgable guy's like SISF or MOB (I think it was) said that the splines on the rear wheel can inexplicably disapear and diconnect the engine from the drivetrain (and not make any noise that would indicate it had done it! ) also looking like a clutch problem.
bingo
he mentioned he could shift it, and it won't move in any gear... big clue. locked up tranny won't shift, ever.
I was thinking hjb spline right from thde start, they fail without warning, Id pull that wheel off, wipe all the grease out of the splines on the wheel side, and examine it closely... the drive side (male splines) are hardened, and seldom go bad, but the wheel side ones are soft, and sacraficial... luckily that hub part is removable, and fairly cheap tonreplace....
you may also have a broken star spring in the clutch, which will prevent correct engagement, but check that wheel hub first, before removing the clutch cover. I don't think the smoke thing, related to any of this either. just another spot to examine further.. if you were clamping on the brakes and holding them on while the throttle was open at freeway speed, for a distance, you likely did heat up the clutch tho, and or the rear hub, you didn't clarify enough of what was going on to say...
oh, kinda late noww to mention this, but as you have found, buggering up a bailing wire fix on a carb for anything other than emergency use to get you home to fix it properly, is both dangerous, and foolish.
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Thanks for the new suggestions. I did not think the splines could be messed up, but I now think I should check them out. I just put a new rear tire on and when I did this I checked out the splines. They looked great and I lubed them up after pulling the clip and removing the splines from the wheel. It looks like I have some things to take apart this weekend.
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Yeah , MOB! and if he was using brakes and clutch to regulate his speed (from the stuck throttle) I can imagine some unusual high stresses of hard on and off,,, that might shear off the soft splines at the hub. that makes good sense. especially if the throttle was stuck wide open and he was trying to keep from over revving the engine yet keep it running. The one that still doesn't make sense to me is about the engine dying when he let out the clutch (even though the the bike wont move??)
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When I let out the clutch the bike does not move and the engine dies. It concerns me that I can put it in gear and the bike doesn't move.
The "engine dies" part gets me to thinking it's not the hub but perhaps the trans or a switch. It sounds like you are saying only the engine is spinning and when applied to a locked up trans (with a properly functioning clutch) the engine stalls. How do you know you are actually putting it in gear? If you can get it in what you think is neutral, can you let out the clutch and it stays running? What about the neutral safety switch failing?
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Thank you,RFH87_connie! That's exactly what I was tying to say (but in my typlical convoluted way) in my second post here (at the very end of it) I decided then to leave out what I was think on that post (which MOB stated) that a jammed gearbox would probably lock the rear wheel up (and not be shift-able) but RFH.. made the point that "how do you know it's shifting AT ALL"?
I was wondering if the gearbox could jam in such a way that the clutch being let out stops the motor BUT at the same time disconnects the shaft and would allow free wheeling at the wheel?? (there would be no "clunking" because there would be no shifting (even though the shifting lever moves?)
I still maintain, that we need much better and detailed symptom description. I went out to my bike and tested the nuetral switch and listened to the way it sounded when it killed the engine... It's a very sudden stop! and sounds NOTHING like, holding the rear break in gear and letting out the clutch (simulating a jammed gearbox)... it's this kinda difference and detail I'm talking about. matter of fact I haven't heard you metion ever again that the engine dying symptom as anything but a "once off" situation??
I figure folks aren't too keen on long posts... but personally don't mind as long as it serves a purpose.
This site, and it's people, are a symbol of what's still good in life... when guys can help each other out, from great distances, nearly instantaneously, all concerning their favorite pastime!
I will be forever grateful
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Here is an update. When I let the clutch out in neutral the bike does not die. When I click it into first gear with the clutch in the back tire starts to move slowly. When I let the clutch out it still dies. I took the rear wheel off to check the splines and they are still good. They are a bit worn, but no more worn than they were a week ago when I had the wheel off. There is still plenty of meat to engage the drive splines. Now to take apart the clutch and have a look. Also the clutch fluid is clean with nothing obstructing the return passageway.
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kickstand safety switch ?
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OK good info!
can you explain the "way" it dies? is it sudden and regaurdless of throttle manipulation? OR does it act like the engine is "Pulling" (even though you see little to no wheel movement??
because I've been asking about the neutral switch over and over here
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OK good info!
can you explain the "way" it dies? is it sudden and regaurdless of throttle manipulation? OR does it act like the engine is "Pulling" (even though you see little to no wheel movement??
because I've been asking about the neutral switch over and over here
When it dies it is just sudden, almost like a switch.
I am not sure what all is the problem, but I took the clutch apart and it is toast. There are charred remains of clutch friction plates all over. Two of the friction plates actually cracked into several pieces (one of them is 9 pieces). The star springs appear unbroken, but I they are a bit loose. I replaced these a few years ago and cannot remember if they are supposed to move a bit. I can move them a few millimeters between the clutch basket and the nut. Are they supposed to be snug on the nut?
I am guessing the much of my problem is no clutch friction plates with broken plates.
Another strange thing is that when I unscrewed the clutch springs the studs came with the spring and bolt. I can't get a wrench in there to separate them, so I am not sure how to separate them. I will replace the springs with the clutch, so I have to get these apart.
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OK Dan well at least you know the clucth is fried and thank you for the info on the "way it dies'" if it's "sudden" like you say it is... (and reguardless of how you rev the motor to "try to keep it running...) that HAS to be the "neutal switch circuit" !!
I don't know where that swicth actually resides in the tranny but (and I'm COMPLETLY guessing here) it sounds like something had to break bad enough to damage that switch!! and I'm also thinking that that gearbox is jammed ! but I'm thinking you are a VERY VERY lucky man because logic (to me ) is that that "jam" should have locked your rear wheel up!! (while you were infront of the Semi!!!!) but instead it locked it up in a way that the clutch burned up (trying to send power thru the tranny but again allowed your rear wheel to spin freely
I hope I'm wrong about the gear box I hope its still fine and all you did was burn up the clutch and that the neutral switch is a separate issue. but I am almost completely certain that the neutral switch circiult is whats killing the engine... I can ONLY imagine "why?"
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Hey Dan. you have the Clymer manual? page 301 photo 99a that's the neutral swicth there (so the switch (it's self) is NOT "in" the motor but I still don't know what mechanically activates or deactivates it So (while you wait for clutch parts to arrive) I would pull that and ohm it out, also see (IF YOU CAN??) what "state" that switch is in? my point is first see if the switch even works... then if it does work then measure what "state the switch is when installed" also remember the neutral switch works in conjunction with the side stand swich! So if something is wrong with the wires or swicthes the bike could think that you are in (any gear but neutral) and that the kickstand is down (even though it isn't) and "presto" the engine is (intentionally) "killed" because the bike "thinks you are trying to ride off WITH the kickstand down! (even though that would be an error in this case.
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Dan,
when you replaced the star springs,.did you stagger them 30* so the tabs are offset, or did you stack them? they should be staggered...
also
did you buy the new style nut with the springs?
the dual spring setup requires a different nut than the original, it must be used, as the original system was.spaced to use a single spring....
Murph sells them....
as for the neutral switch...
that is not an issue.
the only issue would be a sticky sidestand switch, or the switch at the clutch lever, both can be cleaned by shooting wd40 in them.
sidestand, stick the red snooter tube up inside the rubber boot, and spray a bunch, and manualy actuate the switch/stand... it should free up
remove the clutch lever switch, and spritz inside it and actuate it also...
both those switches can be temporarilly defeated by shorting the connections at the plugs on either, just for testing purposes.....
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Thanks for all the replies. I will check out the neutral switch, clutch switch, and sidestand switch.
MOB..I replaced the star springs with the kit from Murph and they are staggered. I followed the directions he sent when I bought them. Now to buy a new clutch. Murph has been getting a lot of business from me lately.
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So how goes it? :popcorn: sorry I'm just a little impatient Ha Ha!
Dan you are probably too busy with life to bother with what I'm about to ask, but... Any chance you could tell the story of what happened at the point you had the stuck thottle (I'm imangining, wide open?) as you were stuck infront of a semi. Not so much for diagnostics (because you have one of the best on the case (MOB)) But just because I've been trying to imagine what actually happened. Not only that but I've always thought of the "wet clutch" as nearly indestructible, so I'd love to hear how you got that one to self destruct. Just curious. thanks!
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So how goes it? :popcorn: sorry I'm just a little impatient Ha Ha!
Dan you are probably too busy with life to bother with what I'm about to ask, but... Any chance you could tell the story of what happened at the point you had the stuck thottle (I'm imangining, wide open?) as you were stuck infront of a semi. Not so much for diagnostics (because you have one of the best on the case (MOB)) But just because I've been trying to imagine what actually happened. Not only that but I've always thought of the "wet clutch" as nearly indestructible, so I'd love to hear how you got that one to self destruct. Just curious. thanks!
I have not done much with it except ordered a clutch and new cable bracket.
Here is how this thing happened. There is a peg or something on the outside of the carb that the cable bracket sits on. For some reason this broke on mine a while ago and if you pulled the throttle hard the whole cable bracket assembly would pivot forward and the throttle would stick slightly. I tried to JB weld that piece back on the carb, but the only way I can see fixing it is replacing the carbs. The piece that broke off is part of the carb body, so it can't just be replaced. I fashioned some wire on the throttle bracket that anchored it to the frame and kept it from rotating forward.
So, last week I was heading to work and decided to pass a semi hauling two dump trailers full of dirt. It was a two lane road and the truck way just starting from a 4 way stop so it was going slow. I was passing and when I was almost passed I realized that the car coming toward me was going way over the speed limit. I pulled the throttle as hard as I could. Then the wires keeping the throttle cable assembly broke and the throttle was stuck on full. I was in 4th gear and the bike was taking off like a rocket. I tried to unstick it, but it would not come. I was now in front of the semi and there was a drainage ditch on the side of the road and I could not pull over. I pulled in the clutch while trying to unstick the throttle. I then had to let the clutch out and pull in back in when I started going too fast. I went about a half a mile like this until there was a dirt road that I could pull off on. By this time smoke was flowing out of the clutch side of the engine. I shut it off and then got the cables unstuck. The whole bracket on the carbs is destroyed from me trying to unstick it on the road.
These clutches should be indestructible, was they were not set up for the abuse that I gave. I hope that clears things up.
Will pull the carbs this weekend and see what can be done. Also will probably put the clutch in this weekend.
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Wow. This is the first I have heard of such an issue with the throttle. I am glad you are safe.
When you take the carbs off consider posting a pic for analysis.
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If you haven't already, put an ad in the "Wanted" section for the appropriate carb body (which number carb if it matters). Someone's bound to have one for a good price. Maybe even PM SISF to see if he has one he would part with. You might consider at least new fuel rail o-rings from Murph at this point too.
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You might be able to switch two carbs and be ok.
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I have the clutch replaced and it works the way it should. No more stalling when I let out the clutch.
Now for the carbs. I have one question. Do all years use the same carbs? I am doing some research and I am not sure if there were changes along the way. Thanks for you help.
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All years use the same carbs.
I have seen the exact issue you had. there's a post on the #2 carb and it got broken off. the only fix is another set of carbs. steve
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Steve is helping me out with a new carb. Thanks Steve! Here are some pictures. One of two of the friction plates (4 actually cracked into pieces), and two pictures of the carbs. You can see the piece that is broken off and how I destroyed the connectors for the cables when I was trying to get the throttle unstuck.
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wow. How did you mangle it like that? You must have used a lot of force.
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"OH POOP!!!" or something of that nature. :'(