15k mile service

[mike-s4]

Mr Pepsi,

Same here. At 31k they were all in spec.
Riverszzr somehow has to change "10 or more" shims every 15K?
Maybe he's talking about race bikes running 12,000 rpm all day.
Maybe me and your dealer both need new feeler gauges?

[ZG]

Good job ZG for reaching 15k 13k!
Keep up the good work, maybe by 2030 you'll reach 30k!

You better stick to drinking beer MP, yer math skills suck bro... 

[Riverszzr]

So when getting a valve adjustment done, I should also consider getting the TPs adjusted, synchronize the throttle bodies and now having "other electrical sinsor components" checked.

What other "electrical sensor components", are you referring to?

Sorry my spelling is actually good, it is my typing and failure to proof read once done that sucks

Air temp sensor
Barometric pressure sensor, airbox pressure sensor
Main throttle sensor
Sub throttle sensor
just to name a few, there are over a dozen sensors on most any current model bike and on fuel injected or any fuel pump bike, fuel pressure should be checked as part of the tune up service as well.


And to answer Mike-s4;
 No I am talking about your average run of the mill ridden bikes just like a concours, I have done a couple members of this forums valve adjustment  who both have C14's, one is an 09 and one a 11? model. Both have needed more than 10 shims each time they have been in......In some long ago thread one of the owners actually posted up the measurements for some of you to apparently scoff at.

 Perhaps all the bikes in MN are made differently? Maybe it is the winters? Maybe all the riders here ride them differently and somehow all these factors make every motorcycle I have ever done need adjustments...Oh wait that can't be, cuz I have done bikes in Texas, in Florida, In Kentucky, In North Dakota, In South Dakota, In Wisconsin, In Illinois, In Michigan..........gee it must be me....duh
 All those trackbikes and racebikes that spend 90% of their life above 9000 rpms the interval is cut in half or less and they get rebuilt more often than you guys are doing adjustments.
 Hell I have done a couple CBR250R's and instead of adjusting the valves I threw them in the garbage and installed all new ones- neither of them had any clearance at all on any valves-they were actually open and since 4 valves, 4 sets of springs, the retaining washers and keepers and a head gasket was sub $30 at the time it only made more sense to throw them than try and adjust something clearly worse than worn out and only going to fail long before it ever would have seen the next interval.

You don't believe-that is your peroggative but I still find it highly unlikely, in fact I find it impossible, that people claim their bikes haven't needed adjusting yet thousands of bikes I have done each and everyone has always needed valves adjusted. Clearly some people doing the measuring are doing it wrong-if at all. Some simply just want it to be so so they claim it is so.

So bury your head in the sand or don't, it really makes little difference to me as I know what I see daily and you will never make me believe these claims short of me actually getting one of these supposedly "all within specs" bikes in here to pull apart and do the measurements on. Any takers?

[mike-s4]

Riverszzr,

Bike is at 92000km now.(around 57000 miles). I plan on opening it up again at 100000 kilometers. Might need a few shims then.

Always did my own valves. Z1-900, couple of kz1000's. Then my 2 zx11's. Now my zg. Still have the tool that holds the shim bucket down for the old 900. Yes ,sometimes they needed shims. Never 10.
Some could be a little tight or loose but I do not change them if they are in the range that Kawasaki specifies.
I would probably change more than 10 shims if I was trying to get them all in the middle of the range allowed.
I'm guessing that is why you're changing so many. I'm not that fussy. 
Too bad you're so far or I would take you up on your offer!

My Ducati s4 ("Mike-s4") was a different story. Every 15000 kilometers it had to be checked.
2 cylinders,8 valves, 16 shims to check.

Shim tip-  If a shim is too tight and the next size available makes it too loose, You can machine a few thou off one side of the thick shim.
Just make sure the side you ground down is facing the bucket. It has lost it's surface hardness and should not be on the cam (friction) side.

Cheers.

Mike

 

 

[Riverszzr]

Riverszzr,

Bike is at 92000km now.(around 57000 miles). I plan on opening it up again at 100000 kilometers. Might need a few shims then.

Always did my own valves. Z1-900, couple of kz1000's. Then my 2 zx11's. Now my zg. Still have the tool that holds the shim bucket down for the old 900. Yes ,sometimes they needed shims. Never 10. That old Z1 only had 8 valves total and those were shim on top of bucket and about 4 times the diameter of any modern day bike not to mention they didn't rev like today
Some could be a little tight or loose but I do not change them if they are in the range that Kawasaki specifies.Your peroggative but leaving them at an edge of spec is foolish at best
I would probably change more than 10 shims if I was trying to get them all in the middle of the range allowed. yeah well there is the rub, if you think "good enough" is actually good enough for you then roll the dice and let them sit at the edge of spec and hope, because that is all you can do at that, hope they don't move any further in that direction
I'm guessing that is why you're changing so many. I'm not that fussy. I am a perfectionist and since people pay me to do the work, I damn sure am going to do it to the best of my abilities and with over 13000 shims at my fingertips I can afford to be this damn picky
Too bad you're so far or I would take you up on your offer!

My Ducati s4 ("Mike-s4") was a different story. Every 15000 kilometers it had to be checked.
2 cylinders,8 valves, 16 shims to check. openers and closers and those closers run .000" clearance, if/when they get tight at all and bye bye cam, rocker etc...Thus the need to adjust often and the reason it is a $1000+ service

Shim tip-  If a shim is too tight and the next size available makes it too loose, You can machine a few thou off one side of the thick shim.That may have been true with the old ginormous shims, as long as they were oem shims and hardened through and through-but todays shims selections on any 9.5mm or 7.5mm size come in .001" increments-(closer yet if you have some of the "1/2" size shims that came installed in many bikes from the factory) so no need to try and sand down the face of any of them. And the aftermarket ones are only surface hardened and of varying quality, so I would highly discourage trying to take anything off them, hell I throw them in the garbage they are junk and refuse to use any of those aftermarket shims.
Just make sure the side you ground down is facing the bucket. It has lost it's surface hardness and should not be on the cam (friction) side. This won't matter-go through the hard face and they are screwed either way, shim under bucket shims have a dimple on the inside of the bucket and then the small tip of the valve.........But perhaps if you are talking about the ginormous shims that were shim on top of bucket of the olden days, then your logic is sound but I still wouldn't do it in practice.

Cheers.

Mike

[BMahar]

   On January 25, 2014, I had my 2011 Concours serviced, at the dealers, at 30,305 miles.  I had the throttles sync'd, new spark plugs, new air filter, radiator fluid changed and the valves checked. 10 of the 16 were out of spec and needed new shims.
  I also had this service done at 15,600 miles. There were several valves out of spec at that time.
  I figure on keeping this bike for a long time and if doing the recommended service will make this possible then so be it.
  I'm sure the engineers that set the service intervals are much smarter then I when it comes to an engine they designed and developed.
  We are spending much money on farkles so why not keep the bike running as it's supposed to run.
  I also have a 2007 Suzuki Bandit and just sold my 2002 Honda Blackbird and every time I had the valves checked at the required intervals,  there were always valves out of spec.
  Just my two cents worth.
  Brent
     

[B.D.F.]

Yeah, certainly a valid thought but there is a problem in that it is not just the manufacturers who have specified the valve lash check intervals. On the identical valve train, the maintenance interval changes due to the country the valve train is used within; in the US and Canada, the interval is 15K miles but for the rest of the world, the interval grows to 26K miles. So there are other factors at work in choosing the interval in the first place and at least some of them are not based on anything even close to sound design or engineering practices.

It is the same way with the spark plug replacement interval; that is US emissions regulated rather than anything needed by the mechanics of the vehicle and frankly, with iridium spark plugs, 7,500 mile change intervals is ludicrous.

But as I have said before, there is absolutely nothing wrong with following the maintenance schedule set forth by Kawasaki for US bikes. I am simply saying that there are other considerations that may make disregarding the suggested intervals and using other intervals perfectly sound and reasonable.

Brian

<snip>

  I figure on keeping this bike for a long time and if doing the recommended service will make this possible then so be it.
  I'm sure the engineers that set the service intervals are much smarter then I when it comes to an engine they designed and developed.
  We are spending much money on farkles so why not keep the bike running as it's supposed to run.

<snip>

  Brent
   

[Riverszzr]

^ I am completely with you on the Iridium plugs, even non iridiums last longer than 7500 miles normal use in most motorcycles

[SimonSaysDie]

My two cents.
Does the bike start quickly hot or cold?
Does the bike idle OK?
Does it have as much power as when new?


If you answer yes to all of these, IMHO save a few bucks and wait until 30,000mi. or so...

I have not opened mine up yet and over 50,000mi. on my '09, it runs as good as new. (if not stronger)
 I'll probably get some flak for this but I'm sticking with the majority, 15,000mi. is a little early.

The guy at my shop said the same thing.  As long as those things were fine, he said he'd wait until I brought it in at 26K.  He said he almost never sees it needed at 15K.  When I took it in at 26K I think 4 needed adjusted but were just right on the edge of even needing it.

[maxtog]

The guy at my shop said the same thing.  As long as those things were fine, he said he'd wait until I brought it in at 26K.  He said he almost never sees it needed at 15K.  When I took it in at 26K I think 4 needed adjusted but were just right on the edge of even needing it.

Each bike is bound to be different, even though they are the same model.  Different riding patterns, different riding styles, different loads, different weather, different manufacturing variances, different oil & intervals, different filters, etc.  We are all looking for some type of trend, based on feedback from others.  Unfortunately, it is not very scientific this way because we probably don't have enough data and/or don't have verified data and/or don't have it all adjusted for various factors.  That said, the only non-scientific conclusions I can draw are from everything I have read (on the forums) regarding valve lash check/adjustment:

Generally,  it is rare that the valves are out of spec and common for them to be in spec.

Generally,  when there are some out of spec, they are usually barely out of spec and the number of out-of-spec (of the 16) are few.

We know for a fact that the US service interval is much shorter than for the rest of the world, which makes it more political and/or regulatory than actually necessary.  The C14's in the US are no different than elsewhere.

Generally, it seems the US service interval is too aggressive.

Generalizations aside, it is very possible for any particular bike to be out of spec after OR before the recommended service intervals.

Running while out of spec can cause expensive damage.  The longer and the more out of spec, the more like damage is and the more severe it could become.

It is possible to be out of spec and not know it from engine sound or running or performance, although sometimes one can tell.

As for spark plugs, it seems almost universally accepted that the recommended service intervals are ludicrous.  EVERY posting I have read said the plugs were fine when examined, no matter what the interval has been.  Verbally, I was told by a service tech that replacement is advised to prevent them from seizing in the head, later causing them to break later when removed, which makes a big mess.  I tend to dismiss this (if anti-seize was used properly, that problem should be exceptionally rare).

[connie14boy]

A common sense approach is always best for maintenance. The intervals that Kawasaki chose are just wrong. This is my conservative program:
Oil and filter every 5,000 miles (not 7,500) using Shell 15/40 Rotella.
Change differential oil every 10,000 miles.
Change radiator fluid every 15,000 or 2 years.
Change brake/clutch fluid every 2 years.
Forget about spark plugs.
Add 4 oz. Lucas fuel conditioner every 1,000 miles to combat crappy alcohol gas.
Inspect valve lash at 50,000 and sync injectors.
Do the work yourself unless it's warranty work needed.
Reassure yourself that the manual is just stupid by reading the shifting speed criteria. Wow. Goofy!

[maxtog]

Reassure yourself that the manual is just stupid by reading the shifting speed criteria. Wow. Goofy!

  Well, maybe that is just the legal department's view of being "safe".

[Riverszzr]

Maxtog-the biggest flaw in your entire "logic"

You say it yourself, you base it all off of what you have read on forums. Forums where by and large are people just spewing **** out their ass because they want it to be so. Some of that information is false information some lazy ass mechanic told them becasue he was too lazy to actually do the work, but by and large 95%+ of the information when it comes to valve adjustment needs and where they actually are is total bullshit becasue people are cheap and want things to be easy etc.

Connie14boy;
where would I even begin...
I could let the rest of your "advice" slide but your spark plug recommendation and valve lash recommendation are just ridiculously inappropriate advice to be spewing and couldn't be further from the real world than pluto is from the sun.
 Hey what is your mechanical background?
How many motorcycles have you actually adjusted valves on?
 Have you ever run a bike on the dyno before and after a valve adjustment, throttle body sync, TPS adjustment etc....
 Have you ever even actually seen a valve adjustment performed and watched the process and seen the measurements?

Apparently you and others like you think you know more than people who actually do it for a living (not hacks who just waste space in the service department of some shops) and care about the quality of work they put out. You also apparently are smarter than the people at Kawasaki who built the bike and planned out the specs and thus the service intervals..

Must be hell to be smarter than everyone else without any actually knowledge on the subject.

 Please enlighten me on how much you know and can back up....

For anyone in the future reading this thread, it is so full of fail and misinformation and just completely stupid advice by some it is ridiculous.

[connie14boy]

Maxtog-the biggest flaw in your entire "logic"

You say it yourself, you base it all off of what you have read on forums. Forums where by and large are people just spewing **** out their ass because they want it to be so. Some of that information is false information some lazy ass mechanic told them becasue he was too lazy to actually do the work, but by and large 95%+ of the information when it comes to valve adjustment needs and where they actually are is total bullshit becasue people are cheap and want things to be easy etc.

Connie14boy;
where would I even begin...
I could let the rest of your "advice" slide but your spark plug recommendation and valve lash recommendation are just ridiculously inappropriate advice to be spewing and couldn't be further from the real world than pluto is from the sun.
 Hey what is your mechanical background?
How many motorcycles have you actually adjusted valves on?
 Have you ever run a bike on the dyno before and after a valve adjustment, throttle body sync, TPS adjustment etc....
 Have you ever even actually seen a valve adjustment performed and watched the process and seen the measurements?

Apparently you and others like you think you know more than people who actually do it for a living (not hacks who just waste space in the service department of some shops) and care about the quality of work they put out. You also apparently are smarter than the people at Kawasaki who built the bike and planned out the specs and thus the service intervals..

Must be hell to be smarter than everyone else without any actually knowledge on the subject.

 Please enlighten me on how much you know and can back up....

For anyone in the future reading this thread, it is so full of fail and misinformation and just completely stupid advice by some it is ridiculous.

Maxtog-the biggest flaw in your entire "logic"

You say it yourself, you base it all off of what you have read on forums. Forums where by and large are people just spewing **** out their ass because they want it to be so. Some of that information is false information some lazy ass mechanic told them becasue he was too lazy to actually do the work, but by and large 95%+ of the information when it comes to valve adjustment needs and where they actually are is total bullshit becasue people are cheap and want things to be easy etc.

Connie14boy;
where would I even begin...
I could let the rest of your "advice" slide but your spark plug recommendation and valve lash recommendation are just ridiculously inappropriate advice to be spewing and couldn't be further from the real world than pluto is from the sun.
 Hey what is your mechanical background?
How many motorcycles have you actually adjusted valves on?
 Have you ever run a bike on the dyno before and after a valve adjustment, throttle body sync, TPS adjustment etc....
 Have you ever even actually seen a valve adjustment performed and watched the process and seen the measurements?

Apparently you and others like you think you know more than people who actually do it for a living (not hacks who just waste space in the service department of some shops) and care about the quality of work they put out. You also apparently are smarter than the people at Kawasaki who built the bike and planned out the specs and thus the service intervals..

Must be hell to be smarter than everyone else without any actually knowledge on the subject.

 Please enlighten me on how much you know and can back up....

For anyone in the future reading this thread, it is so full of fail and misinformation and just completely stupid advice by some it is ridiculous.



I am not as anal retentive as some people are about this..

[VirginiaJim]

Boys, let's reign it down a bit, ok? 

[mike-s4]

ZG,   Have you reached a verdict in the case?   TO SHIM.... OR NOT TO SHIM....  That is the question!

[VirginiaJim]

I would think that would be up to the technician doing the work as to shim or not, but I'm thinking the next time I get this done, I'll specifically ask to have them adjusted to the center of the range rather than just say 'they're in spec'.  I have had mine checked twice and so far they have been 'in spec'.  I have not had any issues with 'driveability' and the bike feels like it felt when I bought it.  I did get the throttle body sync done and the spark plugs changed (55k miles) but I really couldn't tell any difference in the way the bike reacts to twisting the throttle.

I have no scientific evidence, but I think the more the bike lives in the higher rpms, the more likely it would need the valve clearances to be adjusted.  It's up to the individual on what they want to do but I would think that the first service (15k miles) should be the one where the valve clearances are set to center.  I didn't do that but I think it makes sense.  No need for the spark plugs but I would get the TB sync as well.

[Riverszzr]

I am not as anal retentive on this subject as some

So if I am interpretting your answer correctly what you are really saying is you don't have a clue but if you can't seat of the pants tell anything and the bike is still running it is all good. Does that sum up your position pretty well? You seem to offer nothing of any validity to the conversation?

 Yes I am very particular, I get paid to do this and have done this for over 32 years now. I treat every bike as if it was my own and strive to make sure everyone notices a huge improvement in overall function and enjoyment of their bike when it leaves here.
 Valve adjustment and tune up stuff is what I do better than anyone~ dare I say anywhere in the world~ so yes it pushes a hot button when people spew bullshit conjecture, blatant lies and obvious falsehoods about the need to do it or better stated, your position is the need not to do it.  It is aggrevating at best and downright pisses me off at worst when people simpy ignore the facts and make statements that I know to not be true and others blindly follow simply because they think that person must know more he posts alot or he has done lots of work to his bike (farkles usually) or his mechanic said so (supposedly)

 Hell you even have Virginia Jim making a claim that his valves were in spec.......where is the evidence of this? Because someone said so and you can't prove them wrong is not proof positive. Hery atleast some seed of doubt has come to baer and he will have then actually set and get the measurements next time
  So seriously do you think everybike I have seen has been ridden only in the upper range of the rpm band, or that something is wrong with my feeler guages, or that I am making this up simply so I can argue a point ~to your benefit and your bikes longevity I will add~ or to inspire you to do the work so other scmo can take your money.....It is not like I expect you to travel to me so I can make your money...Hell at $420 for a proper tune up on a C14 spending hours enlightening some of you is hardly worth it as I could have just kept working on something else that was actually here and willing to pay me now. So it is not advertising for me in order to drum up business. I have no alterior motive, no incentive to sit down and spend time trying to educate a few on the merits of proper service and what I have seen for decades.

And don't tell me to reign it down, if people are going to make ignorant statements I certainly can rebut those statements with facts.
 Fact I have well over 13,000 valve shims on hand
Fact I have 7.5mm shim in every size ever manufactured from 1.20 to 3.20 including all those .01, .04, .06, .09 sizes so I can and do set valve clearances with .0005" of exactly where I want them...yes I am that anal cuz it does make a difference
Fact I have been working on motorcycle for over 32 years
Fact a good tune up can't be done in under say 7 hours on a C14, if one is actually making all the adjustments and checking everything that should be checked and making the proper adjustments
Fact the first valve adjustment is the most important as I see the largest number of valves the furthest out of spec
Fact many people by nature just wants things easy and cheap and as a result convince themselves in fact it is-thus so many so boisturous about it doesn't need this or that
Fact many people, probably a really high percentage of people don't have the mechanical aptitude or even enough basic knowledge to do the job correctly or ask the right questions of someone else they decide to trust to do the job that supposedly does have that aptitude and knowledge. Unfortunately those that do is few and far between based on all the horror stories on every motorcycle forum everywhere...but again it is the internets where people lie and fabricate their own truths with little to support anything they say
Fact Iridium plugs do indeed last about 3-4 times longer in a motorcycle than standard plugs (if everything is running properly)
Fact less than 40% of the bikes I service now are sportbikes ridden on the track or aggressively on the street, the vast majority of bikes I see are joe blow who rides a few thousand miles a year at a liesurely pace on a bike that is less than 8 years old and rarely sees rpms even half of redline.
Fact when it comes to the tune up services I provide there has never been a single person anywhere ever that hasn't ridden away feeling like they were handed a brand new bike-so anyone who went in for service and got it back from joeschmo at losegarage and didn't immediately tell a big improvement-well you probably paid alot of money for virtually nothing

Now I dare you to dispute any of my facts.

[Riverszzr]

 Here are some C14 measurements from a C14 that I did the tune up service on at 18,900 miles

[VirginiaJim]

I think this thread has run it's course....sigh.  I do have the measurements to my last valve check, the tech gave them to me.  Just can't put my hands on them at the moment.