PCV vs. Guhls flash for use with full system

[Riverszzr]

 Yep, the GUHL reflash....well it is not a set in stone setting-they just like the other parameters that can be changed can be changed to a large degree or small degree

 And while most C14 owners are looking for better throttle response down low and through midrange, there are still benefits throughout the entire rpm range in the reflash.
 Plus if you decide you want more, or change exhuast etc you can get it reflashed for free....just pay the shipping there and back


 As far as traction control and how effective it is up top with reflash or without flies, I have only tried it on a 2013 ZX10 and the difference is noticeable but not catostrophically so. But enough to have a bit more apprehension if you aren't using it all the time and get aquaited with it. once you are more used to it, I don't think it would make much difference in lap times, but for a dilay rider that rarely runs it out to upper rpms and then has it kick in the difference is noticeable and maybe a little disheartning to your confidence without flies.

[Flienlow]

Let me see if I have this straight.

Concours 14 Performance MODs:

If you are cheap- Remove Butterflies (free) = better “Performance”

If you are not so cheap- Guhl’s Reflash ($400) = better “Performance” + 1HP + Torque

If you are not cheap at all: Power Commander($400), ZX-14 throttle bodies ($200 ebay), areaP full ($1000) = Best “Performance” +/- 30hp (160hp range) + Lots more Torque.

[gPink]

You missed the turbo option....$$$$$$     200+ hp/ torque out the a$$

[maxtog]

Let me see if I have this straight.

Almost, I will fix it for you

If you are cheap- Remove Butterflies (free) = better “Performance”

If you are cheap but have the skill and time- Remove Butterflies (free) = better Performance/response + partial traction control negative effect.

If you are not so cheap- Guhl’s Reflash ($400) = better “Performance” + 1HP + Torque

If you are not so cheap and/or don't have the skill and/or time- Guhl’s Reflash ($400) = better Performance/response + 1HP + Torque + no zero effect on traction control + some adjustability (reflash).

If you are not cheap at all: Power Commander($400), ZX-14 throttle bodies ($200 ebay), areaP full ($1000) = Best “Performance” +/- 30hp (160hp range) + Lots more Torque.

If you are not cheap at all and have lots of skill and/or time: Power Commander($400), ZX-14 throttle bodies ($200 ebay), areaP full ($1000), new headers ($!!!!!), and remove butterflies = Best “Performance” +/- 30hp (160hp range) + Lots more Torque + full adjustability + expandability + partial traction control negative effect.

[nxtdoor]

I did the full Area P with flies out, the PCV and had it Dyno tuned.

Don't under estimate the importance of doing the Dyno tune with the PCV. It made a big difference in drivability in the low to mid range. My bike had some stumbles in a couple places in the power band and the tuner was able to clean all that up.

It did bring it up to 157hp, but I liked the improvement in torque especially at 102lbft.

Jeff

[Conniesaki]

Let me see if I have this straight.

Concours 14 Performance MODs:

If you are cheap- Remove Butterflies (free) = better “Performance”

If you are not so cheap- Guhl’s Reflash ($400) = better “Performance” + 1HP + Torque

If you are not cheap at all: Power Commander($400), ZX-14 throttle bodies ($200 ebay), areaP full ($1000) = Best “Performance” +/- 30hp (160hp range) + Lots more Torque.

If you are not cheap at all: Power Commander($400), ZX-14 throttle bodies ($200 ebay), areaP full ($1000) = Best “Performance” +/- 30hp (160hp range) + Lots more Torque + your name may be Jay.

[maxtog]

+ your name may be Jay

LOL!

[Flienlow]

I did the full Area P with flies out, the PCV and had it Dyno tuned.

Don't under estimate the importance of doing the Dyno tune with the PCV. It made a big difference in drivability in the low to mid range. My bike had some stumbles in a couple places in the power band and the tuner was able to clean all that up.

It did bring it up to 157hp, but I liked the improvement in torque especially at 102lbft.

Jeff

So if I were to buy a PC, remove the flies, and just run my Cheapo Delkevic can, would I at least get to 150hp?

[maxtog]

So if I were to buy a PC, remove the flies, and just run my Cheapo Delkevic can, would I at least get to 150hp?

I don't think the muffler alone will releave much restriction in the stock exhaust system, each piece is important- header, cat, midpipe, muffler.  And removing the flies [secondary butterflies] doesn't affect peak HP much at all, although it is a CRITICAL part of gaining performance.

Might be possible to increase to that number, I am not an expert in such things... just posting based on what I have seen.  Do yourself a favor and START with removing or disabling the flies (flash)... it will make FAR more difference in real-world performance than anything else you can do.

[PlaynInPeoria]

I just did the Guhl reflash and to me, it's like a whole new bike.  I have spun the tire several times. I am pretty heavy handed with the throttle, that's what I bought it for.   I tend to change rear tires frequently. I have newer Angel GT's and freaking love this mod.   It seems to have added power everywhere. Just touch the throttle and it leaps.

[Riverszzr]

 Dyno numbers don't truly represent street riding very well, especially when you throw out numbers in an rpm range that many will never or rarely use.

 Plus I don't believe there is 30 hp difference between your smorgasboard of items costing thousands vs a simple flash for $375, and where it counts for most riders the difference will be miniscual. Of course some riders will constantly ring its neck and be in the uper powerband so they may see the benefit of spending thousands?
 But I haven't run a C14 on a dyno and done a back to back, but have run a 2012 ZX6r with the guhl flash and then with a PCV and full exhuast on the same bike, the same day only an hour or so apart and the difference was less than 5 hp from 10k up and even less then that through the middle and a few times through the low/mid the stock exhuast and guhl only flash was better

[Flienlow]

I just did the Guhl reflash and to me, it's like a whole new bike.  I have spun the tire several times. I am pretty heavy handed with the throttle, that's what I bought it for.   I tend to change rear tires frequently. I have newer Angel GT's and freaking love this mod.   It seems to have added power everywhere. Just touch the throttle and it leaps.

SO stock bike, Guhl reflash only? No exhaust, no PC, no flie removal?  How has your Mileage faired?

[Forty9rlifer]

Well I haven't even wrapped up the break in and I've got a full Muzzys ZX14 carbon fiber system on the way with a few other "Farkles". After a lot more research I've lowered realistic expectations with a PCV to low to mid 150 range so I decided to email Guhls re more recent updates to their map with a full system. No reply after a couple days so am likely leaning PCV still and de-flying, just after the most grins per mile.

And just a heads up after looking EVERYWHERE, by mistake I found the Muzzys full carbon system for 672 shipped on Amazon after trying to verify a part number on the same system I found on ebay. The stock photo is wrong but the part number and description are legit. Oops looks like it just went up to 683 shipped.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GV7P4W/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[gPink]

Might have missed it but I saw nothing in the ad about headers and midpipe which to me is a full system.

[Rembrant]

Might have missed it but I saw nothing in the ad about headers and midpipe which to me is a full system.

I was thinking that was a helluva deal on a full Muzzy dual system for a C14....I would have bought it for that...lol.

According to the part number, it's a ZX14 full 4-into-1 system, with stainless header and oval CF muffler. It will take a bit of fiddlin' around, but it should fit fine with a little work.

Based on what it is, price seems ok. I bought a brand new Muzzy SS/CF full system last year for a Kawi ZRX1200R, and it was $679 USD.

[Flienlow]

SO stock bike, Guhl reflash only? No exhaust, no PC, no flie removal?  How has your Mileage faired?

BUMP!! Do I need to remove the Flies on my 2010 or not?

[maxtog]

BUMP!! Do I need to remove the Flies on my 2010 or not?

Well, that depends on your objective.  We can't answer that for you.  As you have seen in the postings and other threads, everyone that cares about performance should disable or remove the secondary butterflies.  You can disable them using the Guhl flash if you plan to not use a power commander.  Or you can physically remove them if you plan to get a power commander or you are just cheap and handy (and don't care about the impact on traction control).  Doing both the Ghul AND power commander is mostly redundant and thus mostly a waste of money.

There is little point to using a power commander if you are not going to perform major changes such as a whole exhaust system at a minimum, and possibly leading to changes to the throttle bodies, displacement, cams, intake manifold, larger injectors, etc.  Changing just the muffler and/or midpipe and/or air filter will not reap any major gains (it is still essentially a stock bike) and thus can fit in the Guhl category.

[Flienlow]

Thanks Maxtog!  I think I will just have them disabled with a Guhl reflash. Anymore than that is more than I personally care to tinker with. I just had the bike apart today, and was wondering if I need to do it.

[maxtog]

Thanks Maxtog!  I think I will just have them disabled with a Guhl reflash. Anymore than that is more than I personally care to tinker with. I just had the bike apart today, and was wondering if I need to do it.

If one already had the bike all apart and know what he was doing and able to remove them, then I might be inclined to say "do it".  The effect on the traction control is not terrible.  But most of us (me included) have neither the inclination nor desire to figure out how to remove those things (and not cause damage or a problem or whatnot).

The Guhl flash is fast, simple, foolproof, keeps some of the flies for low RPM (which helps with control... although you can tell him to not do that), tunes the fuel mix slightly, and keeps 100% of the traction control intact.   So it is a nice choice too.