"Why Sport Touring Bikes Suck"

[Poseidon]

You're not an odd ball, man. You're just old school.

My friend has a 14 Kawi Ninja 1000 (sport tourer, not ZX-10R) that has low power mode. He's had it on twice. Once on the ride home from the dealer, his previous bike being an 02 Magna and so wanting to go easy on a more powerful bike. The other time is when I played a joke on him and put it on at a gas stop. Other than that he's never had the inclination, no matter the weather.

He's not alone. My other bike is a 16 Aprilia Tuono. The 11-15s (in USA) had a rain mode. They removed it for the 1100cc refresh. (Used to be 1000cc) They did so because their research said that no one used a low power mode.

That said, the ride modes, while not altering power, do alter engine braking and throttle response. Each mode is quite different, as such I use them in various situations. As I do for the 8 mode TC, 3 mode +off ABS, and 3 mode +off wheelie control. I dont view these nannies as 'one more thing to break.' They're lines of code in the ECU, same as the lauch control. In my view more options is good. If I want raw, untamed savagery I turn eveything off. (A bit different with ESA and ESA II suspension, though.)

Wait... What? Did I read that correctly? EIGHT modes for traction control?!?! Was that a typo? How could anyone possibly need 8 modes of TC?

...and 3 modes of wheelie control? Does it measure the distance the front wheel lifts off the ground or something? Why so many? Don't you either want it to wheelie or not? I would think on and off would be sufficient for those that want it.

I just hate where all of this is headed. The manufacturers, if they actually succeed at what they are attempting to do with all of the rider aids, are going to make it to where no actual skill is needed to ride a motorcycle. After that It is going to be like that motorcycle Honda made a while back that rides its self. Just jump on and tell it where you want to go, sit back with you cell phone and start texting while you are chauffeured around by your bike. When you are not on it, the bike just follows you around like a lost puppy until you are ready to ride. When I saw that video, I was wondering if the bike would heal, sit, roll over, speak, etc. lol

Their is more involved than just lines of code in the ECU. Some bikes have separate ECUs for all of the electronic items. There has to be sensors to feed the info to the ECU, additional wiring harnesses, actuators, relays, etc. And for those that like those push button adjustable suspensions... Do a price check on what a replacement is going to cost you. Do you realize what kind of custom suspension you could get from say Traxxion for that kind of money? Might even have some money left over in some cases.

I guess I am old school. At the same time tho, I do see the benefit in some new technologies, just not the unnecessary ones, or the ones that take away from being an active participant in the ride! For example, I see benefit in TC, ABS, fuel injection, GPS, LED lighting, etc.

[just gone]

The manufacturers, if they actually succeed at what they are attempting to do with all of the rider aids, are going to make it to where no actual skill is needed to ride a motorcycle. 

You and I do view the various electronic aids differently, and that's OK (you ol' oddball you  )  but never fear, what you are worried about in the above quote will never happen. Even with all the rider modes, turning/leaning multi mode traction control, dual clutch automatic transmissions, only a very small percentage of people will have the skill set to ride, or want to ride a motorcycle. I think when motorcyclists talk to other motorcyclists they forget how much skill they have compared to the average cage driver. With automatic transmissions, climate control, almost completely level vehicle, many cage drivers can't even stay in their own lane when making a left turn in either lane of a dual left turn lane intersection. Half of the ones that can do it successfully, have their tongue sticking out the corner of their mouth similar to a 4 year old trying to color inside the lines. It may sound like I'm making motorcyclists out as elites of skill and coordination, and that's not my intent. However we do take some of our skills, even at the beginning level, for granted and we can sometimes think that most drivers have these basic skills that we do. They don't. Many cagers cannot even adjust their mirrors correctly to minimize the size of any blind spots. Way too many adjust their side mirrors so they can see the side of their car, leaving  huge blind spots from 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock to 9 o'clock. Even that assumes that they have 180 degrees of view ahead with their peripheral vision, which many do not, either actually (when tested) or even less perceptively when driving.
 If you don't believe me about the general driving public's skill levels, then someday when the weather is nice, go park at a corner gas station of a busy intersection and just watch traffic flow for an hour. I think you'll be amazed at what you observe. Maybe come away a little bit scared too.     

[mikeyw64]

However we do take some of our skills, even at the beginning level, for granted and we can sometimes think that most drivers have these basic skills that we do.

I've always said that everybody should learn to ride a motorcycle and ride it for at least a year before being allowed anywhere near a car


I am aware this is not practicable

[Eupher]

FM, and Poseidon -- have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.

While I've been riding for many years, I don't consider myself a super-skilled rider. I've had the basic safety courses and can maneuver and handle my bike OK, but I am definitely not tuned in to the point where I need (or could even begin to recognize) those various riding modes -- eight or sixteen or whatever that number is. I don't wheelie, I don't grandstand, I'm just happy to ride a line through a curve and emerge thrilled on the other end.

I initially learned to ride (one never really stops learning, right?) on a 1965 Honda S-90. That thing had a throttle, brakes, clutch, shifter, and hopefully gas in the tank. I was fine with that.

Fast forward to 2018 when we've got cell phones that will make pancakes, shovel the snow off your walk, and allow you to lose yourself for hours. (For the record, I hate my cell phone.)

Most of me sides with Poseidon -- if you want to ride the damned thing, ride it. If you want to play with it, well, that's an option too.

But most of all, I appreciate this discussion. Helps me realize where I am in this world and how much of it I completely reject.

[Poseidon]

You and I do view the various electronic aids differently, and that's OK (you ol' oddball you  )  but never fear, what you are worried about in the above quote will never happen. Even with all the rider modes, turning/leaning multi mode traction control, dual clutch automatic transmissions, only a very small percentage of people will have the skill set to ride, or want to ride a motorcycle. I think when motorcyclists talk to other motorcyclists they forget how much skill they have compared to the average cage driver. With automatic transmissions, climate control, almost completely level vehicle, many cage drivers can't even stay in their own lane when making a left turn in either lane of a dual left turn lane intersection. Half of the ones that can do it successfully, have their tongue sticking out the corner of their mouth similar to a 4 year old trying to color inside the lines. It may sound like I'm making motorcyclists out as elites of skill and coordination, and that's not my intent. However we do take some of our skills, even at the beginning level, for granted and we can sometimes think that most drivers have these basic skills that we do. They don't. Many cagers cannot even adjust their mirrors correctly to minimize the size of any blind spots. Way too many adjust their side mirrors so they can see the side of their car, leaving  huge blind spots from 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock to 9 o'clock. Even that assumes that they have 180 degrees of view ahead with their peripheral vision, which many do not, either actually (when tested) or even less perceptively when driving.
 If you don't believe me about the general driving public's skill levels, then someday when the weather is nice, go park at a corner gas station of a busy intersection and just watch traffic flow for an hour. I think you'll be amazed at what you observe. Maybe come away a little bit scared too. 

Although not available yet to the general public, it already has happened!

Here is Honda's version. (The lost puppy I was referring to earlier)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qGX3rn3s0I

Here is BMW's version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W8p9Pc7VUQ

[Poseidon]

I've always said that everybody should learn to ride a motorcycle and ride it for at least a year before being allowed anywhere near a car


I am aware this is not practicable

I have said the same thing.

[Poseidon]

FM, and Poseidon -- have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.

While I've been riding for many years, I don't consider myself a super-skilled rider. I've had the basic safety courses and can maneuver and handle my bike OK, but I am definitely not tuned in to the point where I need (or could even begin to recognize) those various riding modes -- eight or sixteen or whatever that number is. I don't wheelie, I don't grandstand, I'm just happy to ride a line through a curve and emerge thrilled on the other end.

I initially learned to ride (one never really stops learning, right?) on a 1965 Honda S-90. That thing had a throttle, brakes, clutch, shifter, and hopefully gas in the tank. I was fine with that.

Fast forward to 2018 when we've got cell phones that will make pancakes, shovel the snow off your walk, and allow you to lose yourself for hours. (For the record, I hate my cell phone.)

Most of me sides with Poseidon -- if you want to ride the damned thing, ride it. If you want to play with it, well, that's an option too.

But most of all, I appreciate this discussion. Helps me realize where I am in this world and how much of it I completely reject.

It's good to know that I am not alone here! 

If you have been riding for any decent length of time, which I am assuming you have based on the age of the Honda you started on, You have a lot more road skills than you give yourself credit for. Just like Marty said above, there are skill sets that a rider will learn to survive on the road. Most of us incorrectly assume that everyone on the road has these skills as well. I spend a large portion of my day driving from one location to another for work (around 40k caged miles a year). I see how bad (or distracted) most drivers are on a daily bases.

One perfect example of a skill I think most riders learn early on and take for granted is reading traffic. Actually seeing and identifying those drivers you need to pay close attention to. Watching what cars are doing way ahead of you is another. How many times have you noticed that traffic is slowing down way ahead of you, yet the car in front of you seems to oblivious to the quickly approaching brake lights from the other cars? Also, we tend to have a better idea of what the car behind us is doing. There are lots of other examples as well.

The bike handling skills just come with practice, but they need to be maintained with practice as well. Never hurts to pull into an empty parking lot for some figure 8's every now and then! Sign up for the advanced rider course. It is fun and regardless how long you have been riding, you will learn a thing or two and build a lot of confidence in your riding skills.

[mikeyw64]

Although not available yet to the general public, it already has happened!

Here is Honda's version. (The lost puppy I was referring to earlier)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qGX3rn3s0I

Here is BMW's version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W8p9Pc7VUQ

I would be more impressed with the Honda if they had the confidence to take the stabilisers off



As for that idiot from BMW " In the future we envisage riders not wearing helmets but instead wearing smart spectacles"

Really? and how are they going to stop you hurting your noggin if you come off?

[Poseidon]

I would be more impressed with the Honda if they had the confidence to take the stabilisers off



As for that idiot from BMW " In the future we envisage riders not wearing helmets but instead wearing smart spectacles"

Really? and how are they going to stop you hurting your noggin if you come off?

Here is another video of the Honda with no stabilizers.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VH60-R8MOKo

As for the BMW, I think they are trying to stress how safe they have made motorcycling.

[mikeyw64]

Here is another video of the Honda with no stabilizers.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VH60-R8MOKo

As for the BMW, I think they are trying to stress how safe they have made motorcycling.

Ok that's more impressive.

Next I would like to see how far off centre you can push it and it recovers


As for BMW  they obvioulsy havent taken into account the other idiots on the roads trying to kill you.

[gPink]

here you go... http://litmotors.com/

[just gone]

Honda:    So variable valve timing is OK, but variable trail is crossing the line? I'd love to have this on my C14. I bet most Connie Droppers Anonymous members would like it as well.....depending on cost of course. 

BMW: 

litmotors:    (reserve yours now with a big $$$$ deposit quickly, before we go belly up)

[gPink]

Not to worry ...chicoms to the rescue... https://electrek.co/2016/06/14/chinese-copycat-lit-motors-self-balancing-2-wheel-electric-vehicle/

[Poseidon]

Honda:    So variable valve timing is OK, but variable trail is crossing the line?

DEFINITELY crossing the line!

BMW: 

I agree

litmotors:    (reserve yours now with a big $$$$ deposit quickly, before we go belly up)

I agree... if we are lucky!

[Poseidon]

Not to worry ...chicoms to the rescue... https://electrek.co/2016/06/14/chinese-copycat-lit-motors-self-balancing-2-wheel-electric-vehicle/

Hopefully it is for the Japanese market only. Japanese companies do that a lot. Hopefully this is one of those times!

[O.C.]

I made it about 3 minutes in before I declared it a complete waste of my time listening to him rant for the sake of trying to be entertaining. There is not an ounce of logic to his position.

Agreed...what a cock he is

[Akumu]

Wait... What? Did I read that correctly? EIGHT modes for traction control?!?! Was that a typo? How could anyone possibly need 8 modes of TC?

...and 3 modes of wheelie control? Does it measure the distance the front wheel lifts off the ground or something? Why so many? Don't you either want it to wheelie or not? I would think on and off would be sufficient for those that want it.

I just hate where all of this is headed. The manufacturers, if they actually succeed at what they are attempting to do with all of the rider aids, are going to make it to where no actual skill is needed to ride a motorcycle. After that It is going to be like that motorcycle Honda made a while back that rides its self. Just jump on and tell it where you want to go, sit back with you cell phone and start texting while you are chauffeured around by your bike. When you are not on it, the bike just follows you around like a lost puppy until you are ready to ride. When I saw that video, I was wondering if the bike would heal, sit, roll over, speak, etc. lol

Their is more involved than just lines of code in the ECU. Some bikes have separate ECUs for all of the electronic items. There has to be sensors to feed the info to the ECU, additional wiring harnesses, actuators, relays, etc. And for those that like those push button adjustable suspensions... Do a price check on what a replacement is going to cost you. Do you realize what kind of custom suspension you could get from say Traxxion for that kind of money? Might even have some money left over in some cases.

I guess I am old school. At the same time tho, I do see the benefit in some new technologies, just not the unnecessary ones, or the ones that take away from being an active participant in the ride! For example, I see benefit in TC, ABS, fuel injection, GPS, LED lighting, etc.

Yes, 8 is too much, I agree. Off is option 9. 1-3 make it so the rear needs to kick out pretty good before intervention (like Kawi mode 1), 4-6 are 'some' detection of slip and it slowly kicks in cutting/firing ignition, fuel and timing (Like Kawi mode 2) and 7-8 are rain/sissy mode that make the bike pretty much in a purring kitty cat, incapable of being accelerated hard. (Like Kawi mode 3) They'd be better of with 3-4 modes +off, but this bike is all about squeezing that extra second off of the lap time. (Even though it's not a race replica, it's the most aggressive super naked.)

Wheelie mode does know the angle of the bike, yes. The bike has an IMU (inertial measurement unit) that knows the lean angle, pitch, yaw, height etc of the bike. Mode 3 lets the least amount of lift, for the least amount of time, while 1 lets you get a foot in the air for up to 5 seconds or so. Off? With the power of that bike? Off is 'show off' mode.

Agreed that it's going to be ridiculous to see some guy riding down the road on his bike with his head buried in the cell phone. Kinda like this guy... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE3XsZaL-zo

It's true there is more wiring and what-have-you on the new bikes with ECUs/IMUs and the like, but the my bike is fuggin Italian. If the spaghetti electrics on my Tuono can hold, I have little concern about a Japanese bike's ECU/IMUs/Sensors etc lasting a good while. (Or maybe that's just blind faith.)

That said, as I mentioned earlier...you can turn all of this crap off. If you want to tell the people at the gas station/forums/bike meet that you're a 'REAL' rider in full control of your ****, tell them that all of the aides are turned off. Congrats, you now have a screaming hellcat of a bike that you have to tame, instead of a purring kitten in full on nanny mode.


...since you love over the top electrics. The Tuono (and RSV4) come with a 'calibration' mode for when you change tires or sprockets. You're to get to this mode in the menus and run the bike at 24mph in 2nd gear until 'calibrate' disappears on the dash. The purpose of it is, via Aprilia manual, THE CALIBRATION OPERATION IS USEFUL FOR OPTIMIZING OPERATION OF THE a-PRC IN CASE OF VARIATION OF THE TIRE TYPE AND THE END TRANSMISSION RATIO (PINIONSPROCKET). IF TIRES DIFFER FROM THOSE INDICATED IN THE USER AND SERVICE MANUAL ARE BEING USED, IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE SAME PERFORMANCE FROM THE ATC SYSTEM, IT MAY BE NECESSARY TO MODIFY THE SETTINGS OF THE SYSTEM ITSELF.

Oh, and self-cancelling turn signals. (And they don't even consider that a feature.)

[katata1100]

I wish I had auto turn signals on my c14. My ‘84 Suzuki Madura 1200 had them and hey, that was 34 years ago!

[Poseidon]

Yes, 8 is too much, I agree. Off is option 9. 1-3 make it so the rear needs to kick out pretty good before intervention (like Kawi mode 1), 4-6 are 'some' detection of slip and it slowly kicks in cutting/firing ignition, fuel and timing (Like Kawi mode 2) and 7-8 are rain/sissy mode that make the bike pretty much in a purring kitty cat, incapable of being accelerated hard. (Like Kawi mode 3) They'd be better of with 3-4 modes +off, but this bike is all about squeezing that extra second off of the lap time. (Even though it's not a race replica, it's the most aggressive super naked.)

Wheelie mode does know the angle of the bike, yes. The bike has an IMU (inertial measurement unit) that knows the lean angle, pitch, yaw, height etc of the bike. Mode 3 lets the least amount of lift, for the least amount of time, while 1 lets you get a foot in the air for up to 5 seconds or so. Off? With the power of that bike? Off is 'show off' mode.

Agreed that it's going to be ridiculous to see some guy riding down the road on his bike with his head buried in the cell phone. Kinda like this guy... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE3XsZaL-zo

It's true there is more wiring and what-have-you on the new bikes with ECUs/IMUs and the like, but the my bike is fuggin Italian. If the spaghetti electrics on my Tuono can hold, I have little concern about a Japanese bike's ECU/IMUs/Sensors etc lasting a good while. (Or maybe that's just blind faith.)

That said, as I mentioned earlier...you can turn all of this crap off. If you want to tell the people at the gas station/forums/bike meet that you're a 'REAL' rider in full control of your ****, tell them that all of the aides are turned off. Congrats, you now have a screaming hellcat of a bike that you have to tame, instead of a purring kitten in full on nanny mode.


...since you love over the top electrics. The Tuono (and RSV4) come with a 'calibration' mode for when you change tires or sprockets. You're to get to this mode in the menus and run the bike at 24mph in 2nd gear until 'calibrate' disappears on the dash. The purpose of it is, via Aprilia manual, THE CALIBRATION OPERATION IS USEFUL FOR OPTIMIZING OPERATION OF THE a-PRC IN CASE OF VARIATION OF THE TIRE TYPE AND THE END TRANSMISSION RATIO (PINIONSPROCKET). IF TIRES DIFFER FROM THOSE INDICATED IN THE USER AND SERVICE MANUAL ARE BEING USED, IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE SAME PERFORMANCE FROM THE ATC SYSTEM, IT MAY BE NECESSARY TO MODIFY THE SETTINGS OF THE SYSTEM ITSELF.

Oh, and self-cancelling turn signals. (And they don't even consider that a feature.)

Ok, I definitely need to dig back into the owners manual. We have 3 TC modes on the Concours? I thought it was just on or off.

Your Aprilia is a bit over the top in electronics for me.

I hope I never end up driving in India! When cars start lane splitting it’s time to get off the road!!!

My Magnum has self canceling turn signals. I can deal with those, although, they are a PITA when they turn off on their own before you have made your turn and you have to turn them back on. I would rather just push the button and turn them off myself when I’m ready. I can take them or leave them.

[maxtog]

Ok, I definitely need to dig back into the owners manual. We have 3 TC modes on the Concours? I thought it was just on or off.

You are correct, only on or off; which I guess could be considered two modes.  He might have been comparing to another Kawasaki model.