Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: zhangjx0545 on October 13, 2020, 10:55:29 AM
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Hi there
When I was learning riding many years ago, I do not use rear brake much due to the potential lock up and losing traction, especially under heavy braking when rear wheel has less pressure to ground
My question is, with ABS, should I start using more rear brakes for max stopping power without worrying lock up?
Thanks!
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Well you may be opening a can of worms here with this question and I may be stirring the pot with my answer.
If you have other bikes that you ride that do not have ABS then I would continue to brake the same way as you would on them.
You don't want to respond inappropriately in a panic situation because your muscle memory forgot which bike you're on.
On a newer linked brake C14 then you could just use the front brake only like Connie Rider recommends letting the link provide
the proper amount of rear brake. Since yours is an '09 model then that would not be a safe option, and I think yes you could use
more rear brake with less fear of locking it up because of the ABS.
(Now starts all the other responses and wisdom where you and I are both dangerous idiots, and probably the term "trail braking" will pop up
and it will soon be obvious that few agree on what that really is etc etc. ::) :facepalm:)
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In a panic situation I use both brakes but that's on a Gen1 C14. They aren't linked and there is no traction control.
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Ohhh goodie: Marty gave me an opening.
(Only because he mentioned it) "Proper" Trail braking does not use the rear brake, so the Linked ABS system {sorta} hurts proper Trail Braking.
zhangjx0545, I'm like you, I use very little rear brakes anyway.
{The only time I really use the rear is when I want all the brakes I can get}.
I agree with Marty's statement. (particularly on the earlier years of Linked ABS)
Sooooo,, I'll explain the "do not use the rear brake theory".
My bike is a 2014 with Linked brakes. On that model, touching the rear brake (after the front is applied) will "suddenly" increase your braking force. ie; It's not a smooth transition of braking force. {I think your 09 ABS may be the same, as mine (??)}
The sudden increase in braking force has stood my bike up "in a corner" more than once..
As we all know, that's BAAAAADDDD!!!
My solution {on my 2014} is not to use the rear brake at all.
ie; "I use only the front brake, and the bike applies the rear at the "correct" braking force.
Thinkaboutit; If the bike is already applying the rear force you need, why use the rear brake?
Ride safe, Ted
PS: If muscle memory kicks in and overrides my "new style" during a panic stop
,,,,,,, It's not a problem, bekuz at that point I'm after all the braking I can get.
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When I was learning riding many years ago, I do not use rear brake much due to the potential lock up and losing traction, especially under heavy braking when rear wheel has less pressure to ground
That is also, exactly how I was taught. For just plain stopping, especially in hard-braking, the rears don't amount to much and the danger of using them incorrectly is much higher than just ignoring them. The better way is to know how and when to use them (and rear can be helpful in cornering setup), but it is a matter of risk assessment.
My question is, with ABS, should I start using more rear brakes for max stopping power without worrying lock up?
Like Marty said, the most important consideration is if it is a 2011+ (or a 2010 with ABS), in which case you have linked brakes (2010 ABS/Linked was optional, 2008-2009 ABS was optional and there was no linking). In which case it is not possible to use only the front or rear with linked brakes. If you slam on the front, it WILL engage the rear (safely), and vice-versa. So, theoretically, there isn't much need to manually use the rear in any high-speed, hard-braking situation. At very low speed, the rear can be useful in certain cases because the linking hasn't kicked in yet.
That said, you can adjust the linking AMOUNT (high or low) so there is extra braking power available, especially in low mode, which one can explore, if wanted and necessary and appropriate. There is no "off".
If you have unlinked brakes (which it seems you do), then you are wasting some maximum braking if you don't use the rear (in combination with the much more important front brakes), and the ABS "should" protect you from locking the rear if you overdo it.
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In a panic situation I use both brakes but that's on a Gen1 C14. They aren't linked and there is no traction control.
But it matters if there is ABS or not. If you use both brakes on a 2008 or 2009 without ABS, and overdo either, you can lock a wheel and wipe out. I am a big fan of ABS. Linking- well, it depends. In low mode, it is OK for the overwhelming vast majority of users. Had they offered a persistent "off" mode, then everyone would have been happy.
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I have a 2009, without ABS, by choice, and I use the rear brake, of course the majority of braking is from the front, but I do use the rear brake. I haven't died yet, nor have I locked the rear brake up in a panic stop, launching myself over the bars in a horrific high side, do if you have the crutch that is ABS, then most definitely use the rear brake. Why wouldn't you? I mean, it is entirely possible to use the rear brake effectively, without locking it up, without ABS, people did it without dying a fiery death for years before ABS, why wouldn't you use it with ABS. ABS is wonderful, use the brake. It is your friend. ::)
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I have an unlinked 2009 ABS, and just love the rear brake set up,and always use it in the down hill twisties. You can stomp on it full force with confidence of no lockup or high side, and it scrubs off just enough enertia and loads the front forks down beautifully for the next corner turn in. In fact I use very little front brake in the California mountains, just when needed.
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I have an unlinked 2009 ABS, and just love the rear brake set up,and always use it in the down hill twisties. You can stomp on it full force with confidence of no lockup or high side, and it scrubs off just enough enertia and loads the front forks down beautifully for the next corner turn in. In fact I use very little front brake in the California mountains, just when needed.
ABS unlinked is much better than linked. But why would one "stomp" on a brake? Sadly no one really knows how to brake properly anymore. They just stomp. That is what technology has done to us, made us lose skills. In right at about 1 million miles in cars, most of which were in cars, trucks and vans with no ABS, only my current car has ABS, all the others did not. So at this point, about 950,000 miles with no ABS, and no incidents related to not having ABS, in snow, on ice, rain, etc. My issue now, is the ABS will not let me stop on some of the hills around here when it is snowy and icy, the ABS cycles as I try to stop at the stop sign at the bottom of a hill, causing the vehicle to keep going and not stop. MY non-ABS vehicle, which sadly I do not have now, would stop perfectly, because at some point, in order to stop, the wheels actually have to stop turning. The ABS on both of my vehicles have trouble with that on really bad roads. It's ridiculous. I can sometimes get it to stop on these roads using the parking brake, thankfully cable operated, but being on the rear brake, that isn't always effective.
As for motorcycles, ABS is a great thing, don't get me wrong, but you can ride a motorcycle safely without it, and use the rear brake effectively. I use both brakes. I also practice emergency braking, so I can brake when needed, without problems. I will not deny the effectiveness of ABS on a motorcycle, and its effects on safety, but You don't need to to ride safely, and you can safely use the rear brake on a non-ABS motorcycle. As someone who has ridden for 40 years on the street I think the thought you cannot use the rear brake safely on a non-ABS bike to be ridiculous. Thank God I survived all these years with such an unsafe system.
Sorry, I just get tired of the alarmist attitude towards ABS vs non-ABS. The issue today is, everybody lets the car/bike do the work for them, in cars they become passengers instead of actual alert drivers, I fear the same is happening for motorcyclists as well.
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I wonder if this has ABS, rear only of course? It's currently available. I'm not sure how accessible that top case is but I'm sure there must be a little bit of room in the trunk....OH! perhaps the spare rear tire is in there maybe not? In that case a bigger top case will be needed. ::) ;D
(http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24730.0;attach=32553;image) (https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1969004563242672)
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I had abs on my bike.
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ABS unlinked is much better than linked. But why would one "stomp" on a brake? Sadly no one really knows how to brake properly anymore. They just stomp. That is what technology has done to us, made us lose skills. In right at about 1 million miles in cars, most of which were in cars, trucks and vans with no ABS, only my current car has ABS, all the others did not. So at this point, about 950,000 miles with no ABS, and no incidents related to not having ABS, in snow, on ice, rain, etc. My issue now, is the ABS will not let me stop on some of the hills around here when it is snowy and icy, the ABS cycles as I try to stop at the stop sign at the bottom of a hill, causing the vehicle to keep going and not stop. MY non-ABS vehicle, which sadly I do not have now, would stop perfectly, because at some point, in order to stop, the wheels actually have to stop turning. The ABS on both of my vehicles have trouble with that on really bad roads. It's ridiculous. I can sometimes get it to stop on these roads using the parking brake, thankfully cable operated, but being on the rear brake, that isn't always effective.
As for motorcycles, ABS is a great thing, don't get me wrong, but you can ride a motorcycle safely without it, and use the rear brake effectively. I use both brakes. I also practice emergency braking, so I can brake when needed, without problems. I will not deny the effectiveness of ABS on a motorcycle, and its effects on safety, but You don't need to to ride safely, and you can safely use the rear brake on a non-ABS motorcycle. As someone who has ridden for 40 years on the street I think the thought you cannot use the rear brake safely on a non-ABS bike to be ridiculous. Thank God I survived all these years with such an unsafe system.
Sorry, I just get tired of the alarmist attitude towards ABS vs non-ABS. The issue today is, everybody lets the car/bike do the work for them, in cars they become passengers instead of actual alert drivers, I fear the same is happening for motorcyclists as well.
I must explain my ABS rear braking further- I too have driven at least 700,000 miles in cars, trucks and bikes with no ABS, and developed the necessary technique to brake safely, living in Upstate NY winters for 54 years.. I was surprised though with the way the rear 2009 ABS worked on the C-14 going downhill in the twisties. When I said you can 'cram' on the rear brake with impunity, I meant only if the need arose with no fear of high siding. I am usually just scrubbing off some speed and settling down the front end before entering the next curve- Capiche?
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I must explain my ABS rear braking further- I too have driven at least 700,000 miles in cars, trucks and bikes with no ABS, and developed the necessary technique to brake safely, living in Upstate NY winters for 54 years.. I was surprised though with the way the rear 2009 ABS worked on the C-14 going downhill in the twisties. When I said you can 'cram' on the rear brake with impunity, I meant only if the need arose with no fear of high siding. I am usually just scrubbing off some speed and settling down the front end before entering the next curve- Capiche?
Sure, I understand. My thought though are the same. You can safely use the rear brake in a panic situation provided you practice the skills necessary to do so. Sadly, with the advent of ABS, people have developed a different skillset, the cram on the brake skill set, roughly translated into, no skill set. You had to develop that skill set though, given the way your bike's brakes work. The problem with that for the larger population though, is the drivers today do not have to learn how to control a car or bike without artificial aids, and as a result, they have become less attentive drivers, becoming what amounts to passengers in their of vehicles. Since they do not have to learn to brake properly, they don't have to work at the skill of driving, and are bad drivers as a result.
I understand you are working within your bike's capabilities, and maximizing the effectiveness of the rear brake. Just remember that the 2009 does not have "cornering ABS," so the rear can break loose under heavy braking when leaned over sue to the lateral forces acting on the tire. You do not have 100 percent of traction available for braking as in a straight line, which is how the 2009 ABS is set up to work, so modulating the brake properly is still a good idea.
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Hi PH14
Please help me understand the difference between cornering abs and straight line abs.
Not technique but the mechanical differennce. I have an 09 non linked abs.
Thanks!
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Getting in early. ;D
I believe he's talking about Traction Control on the later bike whereby the fuel injection ECU is given information on wheel slip (increase in rear wheel speed compared to front) by the ABS unit. The former cuts eng output to eliminate slip when accelerating whereas ABS eliminates slip when braking.
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Thanks Freddy. Yes, that would make sense. :)
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Maybe not necessary, but just to clarify for any newer readers who might be confused by the wording-
No C14 has a lean sensor, so the bike is never aware of when it is cornering vs. going straight.
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Hi PH14
Please help me understand the difference between cornering abs and straight line abs.
Not technique but the mechanical differennce. I have an 09 non linked abs.
Thanks!
https://hooshmand.net/list-of-all-motorcycles-with-cornering-abs-imu/
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Getting in early. ;D
I believe he's talking about Traction Control on the later bike whereby the fuel injection ECU is given information on wheel slip (increase in rear wheel speed compared to front) by the ABS unit. The former cuts eng output to eliminate slip when accelerating whereas ABS eliminates slip when braking.
No, I am talking about lean angle-aware ABS. The Concours does not have it.
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Maybe not necessary, but just to clarify for any newer readers who might be confused by the wording-
No C14 has a lean sensor, so the bike is never aware of when it is cornering vs. going straight.
Correct. The Concours does not have lean-angle aware ABS.
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:thumbs: :chugbeer:
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Thanks for the replies.
I was aware the Concours didn't have it but wasn't up to speed on the newest H2 type tech.
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For more info than the dog that sniffed the lamppost see video below.
It's from the other big K, but applies to all.
This video does not discuss linked brakes which are a different animal altogether.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRWg91hv-M&app=desktop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRWg91hv-M&app=desktop)
I practice my emergency stops using both brakes. The rear does not add much in terms of braking force, but it could be the difference between a crash or merely soiled underwear.
I practice on both my C10 (no ABS) and my C14 (ABS) and the stopping distances from the same speed are broadly similar but the C14 always wins by a few feet, probably due to fatter tyres. On the C14 if the ABS activates (vibration in the lever and ABS light on) then I consider that a failure and try again.