I am trying to finish my valve adjustment but stuck at replacing the cams. I have both cam lined up with their marks but when I install the cam caps the cam chain bunches up at the intake side and jumps teeth on the exhuast cam sprocket. I think the problem may be the front camchain guide. I noticed something odd when I removed the tensioner - there was no tension on it, did not come out of the bore as I loosened the mounting bolts and after I removed it tthere was still no slack in the chain until I poked my finger in and pushed the guide.

I don't see anything in the manual about checking for wear on the chain guide and at 55,000 miles it should not be worn out. I followed Fred video and the FSM.

Sorry for the blurry pics. Hopefully you can see what I am talking about.





Could the chain be stretched? I see nothinmg about that in the FSM either. I did remove both cams and the crankshaft DID get disturbed with the cams out.

Any ideas appreciated. My options as I see it:

1.torque the caps, install the tensioner and see how things line up

2. remove the cams and try again with possible camchain R&R.

Haroldo? Paging Haroldo to the white courtesy phone....  Oh wait, is Haroldo already helping you?

Sorry, couldn't resist. <roflamo>

It is important that you go very easy if the cams get out of time with the crankshaft- there is a strong possibility the piston(s) will hit a valve(s). Do not use the starter to bump the engine around, only a wrench or ratchet and socket on the crankshaft, and then only with moderate force. I suggest removing the spark plugs if they are in the engine so you do not have to turn the engine against compression.

Please don't take this the wrong way (no pun intended) but could you be turning the engine the wrong way? Make sure you are turning the engine the correct way (clockwise) and DO NOT turn it backwards. I do not see how the cam chain could bunch up as the chain will not 'push' up against the intake cam in the first place? Make sure the cam chain is reasonably tight on the front or pulling side; you want to install the cams and the chain so that all the slack is on the back or non- tensioned side of the chain. There is a fair amount of slack in the chain but that is normal and that is why there is a CCT there but you do want 100% of the chain slack on the back side, not the front nor between the cams. In other words, the cams should move immediately when you begin to rotate the crankshaft.

If you have turned the crankshaft backwards (counterclockwise) at all whatsoever, stop and tighten the cam chain sprocket bolt before doing anything else.

Brian

I am trying to finish my valve adjustment but stuck at replacing the cams. I have both cam lined up with their marks but when I install the cam caps the cam chain bunches up at the intake side and jumps teeth on the exhuast cam sprocket. I think the problem may be the front camchain guide. I noticed something odd when I removed the tensioner - there was no tension on it, did not come out of the bore as I loosened the mounting bolts and after I removed it tthere was still no slack in the chain until I poked my finger in and pushed the guide.

I don't see anything in the manual about checking for wear on the chain guide and at 55,000 miles it should not be worn out. I followed Fred video and the FSM.

Sorry for the blurry pics. Hopefully you can see what I am talking about.





Could the chain be stretched? I see nothinmg about that in the FSM either. I did remove both cams and the crankshaft DID get disturbed with the cams out.

Any ideas appreciated. My options as I see it:

1.torque the caps, install the tensioner and see how things line up

2. remove the cams and try again with possible camchain R&R.

OK, after reading your question again, this is my second response and hopefully better than the first:

The intake cam is moving when you tighten the cam bearing caps- this is actually pretty normal and occurs because the cam is not seated against the cam bearing saddles but is hung up on some valves. You will probably see a small air- gap under the cam bearing surfaces before you tighten the caps, this is because the cam is sitting on some cam lobes that are pointed down and hitting the open valves.

Timing the cams is a bit tricky because you have to time them for where they will be when fully seated, not necessarily where they are when you drop them in place. They usually don't move much though and a 'best guess' is close enough to position them. You have to tighten the caps down fully before checking the final timing though. Once everything is in place, move the cam chain so that all the tension is in the back of the engine and the chain is tight in the front of the engine (between the crankshaft and the exhaust cam) and between the cams. Then turn the engine over and see if the timing marks line up. They should be close but may not be perfect. Just make sure it is much closer than moving the cam chain one tooth and all should be well. You cannot move the cam timing just a little bit; it has to be done in one- chain increments so the timing would have to be substantially off to make it incorrect.

As far as the tensioner goes, it should have some spring tension on it in use. Perhaps not enough to drive the CCT back when you remove the bolts though. Quite a bit of the CCT's force comes from hydraulic pressure from the lube system in the engine which is of course zero when it is not running. The CCT will fit in the engine either way but there is a correct direction; if installed incorrectly, the hydraulic ports won't line up and the CCT won't be able to use engine oil pressure to help it extend. The service manual shows the correct orientation and you can look and see the oil hole in the CCT port as well as the CCT body itself and these should align.

Brian

I am trying to finish my valve adjustment but stuck at replacing the cams. I have both cam lined up with their marks but when I install the cam caps the cam chain bunches up at the intake side and jumps teeth on the exhuast cam sprocket. I think the problem may be the front camchain guide. I noticed something odd when I removed the tensioner - there was no tension on it, did not come out of the bore as I loosened the mounting bolts and after I removed it tthere was still no slack in the chain until I poked my finger in and pushed the guide.

I don't see anything in the manual about checking for wear on the chain guide and at 55,000 miles it should not be worn out. I followed Fred video and the FSM.

Sorry for the blurry pics. Hopefully you can see what I am talking about.

<snipped photos>

Could the chain be stretched? I see nothinmg about that in the FSM either. I did remove both cams and the crankshaft DID get disturbed with the cams out.

Any ideas appreciated. My options as I see it:

1.torque the caps, install the tensioner and see how things line up

2. remove the cams and try again with possible camchain R&R.

I have been turning clockwise.  I initially attempted to remove only the EX cam as no intake shims are beeing changed. No problem removing only the EX cam but when (FIRST TRY) I tried to re-install the EX I ended up one tooth off after installing the tensioner and roatating the CS. So I then removed both cams and startred over, installing the EX cam first, then the IN. That is when I notice the bunching. It seems to me as if the front chain guide is stuck in the position it was in with the tensioner installed. All seems fine with the cam caps off but once i snug them doen flush with the head, the intake cam seems to pull on the chain and there is no slack. I will check tightness of cam chain sprocket if only to honor the memory of the legendary  Haroldo. (And CMA)

Yeah, kind of ignore that first response- I think it was accurate but it does not apply. The second response is geared toward the cam(s) moving as they are forced down into the cam bearings by the cam bearing caps.

Just manually take all the slack out of the front of the cam chain and between the cams, and undo that bunching spot with your fingers and push the cam chain down in the well. The cams should rotate and time fine even if there is something wrong with the rear cam chain guide as long as the front cam chain guide is OK and in place.

You can also use a blunt screwdriver or a blunt drift to push the rear cam chain guide out and take up any chain slack. Push the drift through the CCT hole and against the guide using hand pressure only- you should not have to force it. This will help tighten the cam chain. You will still need to rotate the engine and cams around to tell if the cams are timed correctly or not. This ensures that the cam chain is tight between the exhaust cam and the crankshaft sprocket.

Brian

I have been turning clockwise.  I initially attempted to remove only the EX cam as no intake shims are beeing changed. No problem removing only the EX cam but when (FIRST TRY) I tried to re-install the EX I ended up one tooth off after installing the tensioner and roatating the CS. So I then removed both cams and startred over, installing the EX cam first, then the IN. That is when I notice the bunching. It seems to me as if the front chain guide is stuck in the position it was in with the tensioner installed. All seems fine with the cam caps off but once i snug them doen flush with the head, the intake cam seems to pull on the chain and there is no slack. I will check tightness of cam chain sprocket if only to honor the memory of the legendary  Haroldo. (And CMA)

OK, after reading your question again, this is my second response and hopefully better than the first:

The intake cam is moving when you tighten the cam bearing caps- this is actually pretty normal and occurs because the cam is not seated against the cam bearing saddles but is hung up on some valves. You will probably see a small air- gap under the cam bearing surfaces before you tighten the caps, this is because the cam is sitting on some cam lobes that are pointed down and hitting the open valves.

Timing the cams is a bit tricky because you have to time them for where they will be when fully seated, not necessarily where they are when you drop them in place. They usually don't move much though and a 'best guess' is close enough to position them. You have to tighten the caps down fully before checking the final timing though. Once everything is in place, move the cam chain so that all the tension is in the back of the engine and the chain is tight in the front of the engine (between the crankshaft and the exhaust cam) and between the cams. Then turn the engine over and see if the timing marks line up. They should be close but may not be perfect. Just make sure it is much closer than moving the cam chain one tooth and all should be well. You cannot move the cam timing just a little bit; it has to be done in one- chain increments so the timing would have to be substantially off to make it incorrect.

As far as the tensioner goes, it should have some spring tension on it in use. Perhaps not enough to drive the CCT back when you remove the bolts though. Quite a bit of the CCT's force comes from hydraulic pressure from the lube system in the engine which is of course zero when it is not running. The CCT will fit in the engine either way but there is a correct direction; if installed incorrectly, the hydraulic ports won't line up and the CCT won't be able to use engine oil pressure to help it extend. The service manual shows the correct orientation and you can look and see the oil hole in the CCT port as well as the CCT body itself and these should align.

Brian

Thanks  for your thoughtful second response Brian, it confirmed a lot of what I was thinking. In the morning I will torque the cap bolts and install the tensioner and see if it will pull the chain out of its "bunch".

Yep, that will work as long as you make sure the CCT has released. You have to use the retaining ring to hold the CCT all the way retracted for installation, and then nudge or bump the plunger to release it. Normally nothing has to be done as the cam chain will rattle the cam chain guide and cause the CCT to release but if you want to have the CCT tension the chain before running the engine, you will have to manually tap the plunger until it releases and the spring pushes it forward.

Brian

Thanks  for your thoughtful second response Brian, it confirmed a lot of what I was thinking. In the morning I will torque the cap bolts and install the tensioner and see if it will pull the chain out of its "bunch".

Thanks for that CCT tip.

Didn't we have someone have a similar issue sometime back?  I think the consensus at the time was removing only one cam could cause issues with the chain tension or timing and that the only 'fix' was to remove both cams and reinstall.  I wish I could find the post but am not having any luck with Google.

Tom Hess tried to remove only one cam and ended up with the timing of that cam being one tooth off. He came to the conclusion that both cams must be removed to facilitate properly timing the engine.

I have no idea what was going on in Tom's engine but it is not necessary to remove both cams to properly time one (either one). I think if one thinks about this for a moment, it will be pretty clear that one cam can be installed anywhere in relationship with the cam chain, retarded, advanced and of course, correctly timed. There is no mechanical limitation to timing only one cam.

Of course things like this tend to start urban legends that tend to really stick in people's minds. I mean we all know the rule for growing a crop: kill the virgin, grow the corn. 

Brian

Didn't we have someone have a similar issue sometime back?  I think the consensus at the time was removing only one cam could cause issues with the chain tension or timing and that the only 'fix' was to remove both cams and reinstall.  I wish I could find the post but am not having any luck with Google.

I vaguely remembered that thread as I was working and it influenced my decision to give up after the first try and remove both cams instead. I agree with Brian, cannot see why one cam  can't be done.

I still wonder if I have a problem with the rear chain guide.
QUESTION: with the CCT removed shouldn't the guide have some free play even with both cams installed..

Yes, the guide should have movement but it may not flap around freely. If I remember correctly, it pivots from one end (the top?) and is held fairly tightly in the cylinder block so it will not clatter around. You should however be able to move it easily by hand without having to push very hard or pry on it.

You absolutely have some free play as far as the cam chain goes, otherwise the chain would not be free to bunch up as in those pictures you took.

Again, the cam chain's job is to pull the cams around with the crankshaft so the following or slack side (back side) of the cam chain means nothing and can be quite loose before the tensioner pushes the guide out to absorb that excess chain.

This stuff is really hard to diagnose using subjective words instead of being there in person. Not your fault, or anyone else's fault but describing noises, clearances, the way something feels (easy boys!), etc. is really tough. Nothing wrong with trying to do this over the 'Net, but it is not as easy as it would be in person to understand what is going on.

Brian

I vaguely remembered that thread as I was working and it influenced my decision to give up after the first try and remove both cams instead. I agree with Brian, cannot see why one cam  can't be done.

I still wonder if I have a problem with the rear chain guide.
QUESTION: with the CCT removed shouldn't the guide have some free play even with both cams installed..

OK. With Brian's helpful explainations of how stuff works I think I have figured out what was going on. With the CCT out the rear chain guide should be free to pivot and let the backside chain slack drop down and out of the way but for some reason it was not pivoting. (I think this is why the CCT did not back itself out as its mounting bolts were loosened)

Instead the top end of the guide was trapping the chain against a small aluminum protrusion in the head and causing it to bunch up. I was unable to budge the guide using hand pressure through the CCT bore.

However when I re-installed the CCT the chain unbunched and dropped down
as I tightened the CCT mounting bolts. Just to check, I R&Red the CCT again. This time it backed out as it should. Now with everything torqued down the alignment marks all look good. Now to recheck the clearances. I may also take a look at the guide mounting bolts and pivot points.

Glad to help if I can, and glad it worked out for you but I am curious about what was causing the guide to stick in the first place. Not to throw a wench to your good luck but I hate things that just 'straighten out' and work because I have little confidence that it will continue.

After all, these are merely internal, mechanical engine components we are talking about here and do not have the inherent robustness of, say, KiPass....  Sorry, I am still chuckling from my 'Godzilla' post. 

But really, do you have any idea what caused the sticking? Are you confident it will not stick again? This might be worth a few minutes with a good light and a mirror to see if you can find the source, and the mounting bolts and pivot point are great places to check I think, as you mentioned.

Brian

OK. With Brian's helpful explainations of how stuff works I think I have figured out what was going on. With the CCT out the rear chain guide should be free to pivot and let the backside chain slack drop down and out of the way but for some reason it was not pivoting. (I think this is why the CCT did not back itself out as its mounting bolts were loosened)

Instead the top end of the guide was trapping the chain against a small aluminum protrusion in the head and causing it to bunch up. I was unable to budge the guide using hand pressure through the CCT bore.

However when I re-installed the CCT the chain unbunched and dropped down
as I tightened the CCT mounting bolts. Just to check, I R&Red the CCT again. This time it backed out as it should. Now with everything torqued down the alignment marks all look good. Now to recheck the clearances. I may also take a look at the guide mounting bolts and pivot points.

The rear cam chain guide is held in place with a dowel pin on which it pivots, near the bottom. The pin is closed on the outside end and held in place by a post cast int the inside surface of the timing cover. It will slide in and out with hand pressure and seems to be spring loaded but I don't see a spring in the parts diagram. Anyway I can't see anything abnormal about the dowel pin or guide, they look fine. I pulled the pin half way out and lubed it. Nothing else to do but remove the guide for closer inspections but that requires intake cam and timing rotor removal. I am not motivated to do that. I still have a TB sync to do.

Well it certainly sounds like you have looked the system over pretty thoroughly. You can always check the guide's operation <fairly> easily in the future just by removing the CCT and seeing that the guide is extended into the chain; I am not really suggesting that, just pointing out that it is possible should you wonder about it in the future.

So far, our CCT's in C-14s seem to be reliable and maintenance and trouble free. CCT's have been the source of problems on quite a few other motorcycle engines so a good design and execution of a CCT, at least an automatic version, is not a given.

It sounds like you have about finished up on the actual valve lash check and adjustment. Glad to hear it went relatively well without any significant (read: expensive or long lasting) problems.

I hope you have a few bad words, or better yet, bad word combinations left for the T.B. synch. It is not a very difficult job but it does require some fiddling with a mirror, a light and a 90 degree screwdriver to make it happen. I guess I would use the word annoying to describe it best.

Brian

The rear cam chain guide is held in place with a dowel pin on which it pivots, near the bottom. The pin is closed on the outside end and held in place by a post cast int the inside surface of the timing cover. It will slide in and out with hand pressure and seems to be spring loaded but I don't see a spring in the parts diagram. Anyway I can't see anything abnormal about the dowel pin or guide, they look fine. I pulled the pin half way out and lubed it. Nothing else to do but remove the guide for closer inspections but that requires intake cam and timing rotor removal. I am not motivated to do that. I still have a TB sync to do.