Removing PCV - In preparation for Ivans Flash - Tips?

[Wes Carper]

Just what it says, got the bike with flies out and a PCV, called Ivan today and he said that adding the flies back wouldn't make a big difference with his tune so I am leaving them out.  Any tips on removing the PCV?  Any gotchas waiting or just simply reverse the installation instructions and button it back up?

[Freddy]

I've not removed a PCV but a PCIII, which simply entailed disconnecting the 2 plugs and reconnecting the stock connector and removing the PC earth wiring etc.  The plugs can be a squeeze to get at.

[Wes Carper]

Great, anyone interested in a slightly used PCV? 

[connie_rider]

It kinda surprises me that he didn't recommend reinstalling the flies.
Any explanation on that?

Ride safe, Ted

[maxtog]

It kinda surprises me that he didn't recommend reinstalling the flies.

Me, also, but planned to remain silent.
The Shoodaben flash uses the flies extensively for control.
The Guhl one did not (and it showed).  I know, I had it before I switched.

[Wes Carper]

He said that there would be some minor benefit but it would be negligible and that if I didn't have the flies (which I don't) it wasn't really worth getting them.  He did give some advice on where to get them if I decided to put them back in.  I think based on his comments I'll go no flies and save the hassle.  Less for me about getting them than tearing everything down to put them back in if they aren't going to make a really big difference.

[connie_rider]

My thought is the flies would help the low end response {at low throttle openings}.
Will be interested to hear your ride report.

Ride safe, Ted

[B.D.F.]

Well, we have finally come full- circle and landed back at sanity. There never was any reason to have a second set of butterflies in the bike for performance- they do not and cannot increase performance on a fuel injected engine. The whole 'leave the 'flies in' thing started as a benefit put out as a plus to get the ECU flashed instead of removing the 'flies and altering the fuel table (what the Power Commander does though it can be done in other ways also). And it IS a benefit as far as labor and effort on the part of the bike owner but it became distorted into the secondary butterflies somehow increasing performance as compared with them removed. Which does not make any sense on the surface of it, never mind getting into the technical aspects; why would closing a set of throttle plates ever increase power? If that worked, the engine would produce more power if the rider closed the throttle to some degree, and that certainly is not the case.

Anyway, in these times of general insanity in the US, and apparently elsewhere, as well as what appears to be a total lack of reason by so many (not picking on any group here but let us be honest, things have gone pretty askew if viewed from any rational place) kudos to Ivan for spreading a truth. :-)

It kinda surprises me that he didn't recommend reinstalling the flies.
Any explanation on that?

Ride safe, Ted

[maxtog]

There never was any reason to have a second set of butterflies in the bike for performance- they do not and cannot increase performance on a fuel injected engine.

Nothing truer could be said.

Their purpose is the exact opposite- to tame/control performance for a variety of reasons (emissions, noise, controlability, anti-snatch, and enhancement of traction control; not necessarily all of which the consumer really wants, either).  All things that are done on a more modern bike via direct electronic throttle.  And, with a flash, the secondary butterflies being operational can be very useful for enhancing/refining the control of power delivery, and full operation of traction control.  So there are some significant advantages to leaving them in when flashing, if/when the flash is designed around that.  Certain things that cannot be done (or done as well) with only cutting down fuel while the air intake is totally uncontrolled.  None of those advantages are performance (where performance is defined as enhancing power).

kudos to Ivan for spreading a truth. :-)

It is a truth as to it doesn't improve performance, on any flash.  It could also be truth as drivability on HIS flash or even certain other ones (like Guhl), especially depending on the meaning of "doesn't make a big difference" when that is qualitative and also doesn't define a difference of what.  From my understanding (and experience) it is not truth as to there being no benefits on other flashes (such as Shoodaben).  Is it enough to say a "big difference" in drivability?  I think perhaps.

[B.D.F.]

What improvements do the secondary 'flies yield on your flash, on your bike? And how do you know there are improvements.... have you used any flash with and without the secondaries to compare?

I can not see any way to improve the normal operation of any engine with a secondary set of throttle plates (flies). As to other features, such as traction control, the secondary 'flies are simply not fast enough to be useful in affecting that performance and it is done instead with fuel and spark limitation, adjustment and if necessary, removal, all of which are fast enough to be effective on the next revolution of the engine. The secondaries are controlled with a small stepper motor and are not fast in operation; this is easy to see whenever the left- mid fairing is off simply by turning the ignition switch on which causes the stepper (and of course, the secondary 'flies that they are attached to) to go through an entire turning cycle to calibrate them.

Anyway, I have received my own ECU back after being flashed and will of course try it with the rest of the bike stock and the secondary 'flies in place because it is simply easier to leave the 'flies in place. If the bike is responsive enough on the low end, I will leave it that way and ride, if not, the ECU will be re-flashed to stock, the secondary 'flies removed and a PC V installed.

<snip>

It is a truth as to it doesn't improve performance, on any flash.  It could also be truth as drivability on HIS flash or even certain other ones (like Guhl), especially depending on the meaning of "doesn't make a big difference" when that is qualitative and also doesn't define a difference of what.  From my understanding (and experience) it is not truth as to there being no benefits on other flashes (such as Shoodaben).  Is it enough to say a "big difference" in drivability?  I think perhaps.

[maxtog]

What improvements do the secondary 'flies yield on your flash, on your bike? And how do you know there are improvements....

From my understanding, based on conversations with Steve, one perfect example is taming the delivery of power on initial throttle at low rpm/low gear, in the same manner that a "Throttle Tamer" does with a physically modified pulley on the throttle cables.  This prevents the famous C14 "snatchiness" (which really is bad).  It is quite effective, I noticed it immediately and have actually considered removing my Throttle Tamer (since now it is a little too corrected).  The same type of effect can be had in other areas.  I don't know all the details.  I know that you can't just cut fuel too much (or adjust spark timing too much) without also limiting air intake due to negative effects (going super lean, possible preignition, etc), and that positioning of the flies to assist is helpful.  Steve would be the source to explain what he is doing, if he is willing.  I know the results of whatever he is doing is far superior to Guhl flash (which pretty much just slams the flies open and doesn't do anything else with them) based on my comparison of the two flashes (had them both for years).  How much of that involves the flies, I don't know.

[Daytona_Mike]

Very interesting read.  I do not recall anyone saying  'Re-installing the  secondary butter flies  will  improve 'Performance'  but   maybe  'more power' is not the same as More Performance.  Smoother transition's.. on off throttle ' snatchiness' removed could be interpreted as 'Better Performance'   instead of more
Ivan's response about  putting  the secondary flies back in 'will not do much'  makes perfect  sense. I remember  him posting  that he opens up the secondaries  early and leaves them open and does not use  them.....  so his  statement does  make  sense.

Now the question remains- Has anyone ran a flash with and without  the secondaries to see the difference?? Well.. I have.
 Obviously not Ivan's because there is a massive huge difference. Does it have better performance??  YES but not like.. its faster.. its just way way better.. I love how smooth it is..on off throttle is way smoother.. seamless..  Without the secondaries I had   a reduced amount of engine braking.. with secondaries... much more engine braking.. so much so that I save money on brake pads. I desire and have always used engine braking so for me engine braking is a huge plus.   I do not want to start a flash war here.. please.. that is not my intention.... Just my experience... Some one asked. I am only responding.. Thanks. 

[connie_rider]

Mike expressed my thoughts well.
The flies enhance the performance {by smoothing transition at low throttle opening's}, and they don't allow the engine to make more HP. {ie; the engine may produce the same HP as it would with them removed, but not more}

Ride safe, Ted

[Wes Carper]

I haven't found that I notice any "rideability" issues with my bike.  It's flies out PCV and I am not sure if it's a decent tune or not.  It has a throttle tamer which I really don't like because it's too much of a turn to get to WOT.  Gonna change the cam to a 050.  Main things for me are to get rid of the Popping on Decel, which is weird given I only have a slipon (in the past have gotten that with a full exhaust prior to tuning).

Main thing for me is getting a good tune (Ivan's been doing this forever and I trust his tuning), getting my suspension setup right (I think the rebound is WAY off) and riding the crap out of it.  It's a 2009 so no TC so anything the flies would do for that is moot anyway.  Maybe gas mileage might be a bit better with em in?  Dunno.  If Ivan says it's good I'm ok with it

Oh an the character of this engine reminds me sooo much of my ZRX...I miss that bike.

[Boomer]

To prevent the popping on decel you need to block the PAIR valve hose. It's on the right side of the bike and feeds fresh air into the exhaust on decel.

[B.D.F.]

That is interesting because I would slightly prefer 'flies out and a Power Commander. Different strokes and all..... Not sure about the decel popping with either method because I always have used, and will continue to use, the stock exhaust and that must mute the decel popping. At least I have never noticed it.

As to rideability and performance.... as I mentioned, the only thing that improves rideability for me is removing the slack from the throttle cables, with the bike stock or with a flash and finally, with the 'flies out and a P.C. As to performance, I found the bike is dogged way down at low engine speeds due entirely to the secondary 'flies restricting the intake ability. Your hand may say "3/4" throttle but if the secondaries say "1/8" throttle, you ain't gettin' much power. Further, with either the 'flies out or a re-flash I do not really think of the bike as having more performance, merely acting like the 1400 cc bike I bought in the first place. The C-14 engine is tuned much flatter than a ZX engine and that probably suits the bike better. I have found the few ZX's I have ridden, including those with 'flies out and a P.C. with a performance map to be sluggish below about 4K RPM or a little more but turn on like a gorilla above 7K RPM. It can be fun but it must be flogged to get it and again, I find it somewhat doggy in normal street riding without downshifting twice before nailing the throttle.

In a perfect world, the C-14 would have a turbo on it with a large waste- gate to eliminate all practical turbo lag. The best of all worlds other than the cost, complexity, elimination of the warranty and absolutely zero hope of ever getting one's money back out of the bike. When I bought my newest C-14, there was a Triumph triple next to it with a turbo hanging off of it. The bike does not appeal to me in any way but that what, 2300 cc engine, tuned for low RPM 'grunt', coupled with a bit more atmosphere jammed in there much make for a very interesting 0 to 100 MPH ride.

Brian

I haven't found that I notice any "rideability" issues with my bike.  It's flies out PCV and I am not sure if it's a decent tune or not.  It has a throttle tamer which I really don't like because it's too much of a turn to get to WOT.  Gonna change the cam to a 050.  Main things for me are to get rid of the Popping on Decel, which is weird given I only have a slipon (in the past have gotten that with a full exhaust prior to tuning).

Main thing for me is getting a good tune (Ivan's been doing this forever and I trust his tuning), getting my suspension setup right (I think the rebound is WAY off) and riding the crap out of it.  It's a 2009 so no TC so anything the flies would do for that is moot anyway.  Maybe gas mileage might be a bit better with em in?  Dunno.  If Ivan says it's good I'm ok with it

Oh an the character of this engine reminds me sooo much of my ZRX...I miss that bike.

[Wes Carper]

That is interesting because I would slightly prefer 'flies out and a Power Commander.

If I had time to fiddle with it I might agree with you or if I took it to a dyno tuner whom I trusted (don't know any).  However, if Ivan's gets me 97% there I'm not gonna quibble over the last 3%.  I just wanna get it right and not have to worry about it and get to the higher RPM power without having to twist from 90 degree wrist to 90 degree wrist.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

From my understanding, based on conversations with Steve, one perfect example is taming the delivery of power on initial throttle at low rpm/low gear, in the same manner that a "Throttle Tamer" does with a physically modified pulley on the throttle cables.  This prevents the famous C14 "snatchiness" (which really is bad).  It is quite effective, I noticed it immediately and have actually considered removing my Throttle Tamer (since now it is a little too corrected).  The same type of effect can be had in other areas.  I don't know all the details.  I know that you can't just cut fuel too much (or adjust spark timing too much) without also limiting air intake due to negative effects (going super lean, possible preignition, etc), and that positioning of the flies to assist is helpful.  Steve would be the source to explain what he is doing, if he is willing.  I know the results of whatever he is doing is far superior to Guhl flash (which pretty much just slams the flies open and doesn't do anything else with them) based on my comparison of the two flashes (had them both for years).  How much of that involves the flies, I don't know.

   Weighing in, better late than never.

   This is an interesting conversation. Let me explain some things that will make sense. First of all, "performance" in my world doesn't just mean power. Having the same power but increasing economy is also "performance". Some may feel ridability is a measure of performance.

   That said, there are some truths here. One is that Ivan's flash won't really be affected by having the flies in or out. Neither would my Hammer flash. Now some history - and this isn't flash war, it's just facts - My flash was out 2 years before his. The theory that I used to tune the secondaries was to open them out of the way enough to allow all the power available at whatever the throttle setting was. Ivan did the same thing. It's an easy approach to tuning. Get the secondaries out of the way, tune fuel, spark, and any other parameters necessary. There is some advantage to throttle sharpness and potential economy by not having the flies open 100% when the primary throttle is open only 10-20-30%, so that was my approach on my very first flash, Which in now The Hammer flash.

  Next truth - I released that flash mid 2015, and it wasn't long before the feedback was "I love the power, but I need more engine braking" . Well one of the casualties when the flies are opened alot is engine braking. So I went back to work trying to figure that out. WOW... that was a job. I had a couple interim flashes before getting to the Mountain Runner line. Trust me, I was breaking new ground - I don't know of any tuner anywhere who has done anything like this, because its NOT EASY.

   Truth... As BDF stated, the stepper motor isn't quick to react. He's absolutely correct. So when building the Mountain Runner secondary mapping, I had to anticipate throttle action and have the secondaries moving with the throttle. Again, not easy. It cuts a very fine line... open the secondaries to much, lose the engine braking. closed down to much, the helmet banging and excessive factory engine braking is right there to ruin your day.

   BTW, this is the reason I decided to bring back my original flash, and offer multiple flashes. Some folks want the engine braking. To others extreme throttle sharpness at light throttle makes them feel that  the Hammer flash is stronger. Actually, when comparing the Hammer Flash and the Mountain Runner Premium flash it's a misconception that the Hammer is stronger. The top 50% of throttle on MRP and hammer is the same. The difference is that for light throttle MRP has the really finite throttle control and engine braking that the Hammer does not have.

    It still amazes me that anyone who has not experienced the difference that secondary tuning has on the overall personality can even try to quantify it. There are some on this thread who have ridden with flies out, or a flash with flies way open, and then are riding with the Mountain Runner secondary controls. They aren't speculating - THEY are telling us how noticeable the difference is. This isn't sales tactic folks, this is a very real distinction in the personality of the flash, and how your bike responds.
   Steve

[maxtog]

tune the secondaries was to open them out of the way enough to allow all the power available at whatever the throttle setting was. Ivan did the same thing.

So did Guhl, who was the very first (and what I had, originally).  I imagine all three were very similar- Guhl's, Ivan's, and your early flash.  So I got to compare the first approach to the second (your Mountain Runner, with the fine controls on lower throttle), and there is a big improvement on "handling" by not just slamming the flies open all or most of the time.

[Boomer]

I had Steve's Decel flash (2016) and the difference in smoothness and rideability between it and the MRP (2020) that I now have is remarkable. The MRP is so much smoother and easier to control that it gives you confidence to push it harder because you are not going to get that sudden snap of torque that threatens to spin you off into the ditch. The Decel had most of the power/torque that the MRP has, but the delivery is night and day. I've not ridden a bike with Ivans or Guhls flash, so can't comment on those.