Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: tbanzer on February 08, 2018, 01:01:12 PM
-
After reading glowing reviews on a few re-flashes, looking to see if there are any done for bikes with the flys removed, and if they are worth the bother and cost.
-
You can get the bike flashed like I did with the secondaries already removed. Yes it was worth getting the flash when not running secondaries but you will be missing out on some neat features.
Later on you can put them back in at your leisure . I no longer had my secondaries so i bought a complete set of throttle bodies from ebay just for the secondary plates and screws.
Do you still have yours? Are you considering leaving them out? it is really easy to install them
I can tell you the bike will run better -much better- with them reinstalled (depending on who's flash you use).
Who's flash are you planning on using?
-
I still have the removed screws and plates, however one of the screws twisted off so it would make reinstalling them a chore. I havent even thought about picking a vendor for the reflash. I was under the impression once the flies were removed there was no flash available and not much increase in hp would be realized. My only disappointment with the bike since the first time I picked the bike up was the disappointing hp vs a zx14. I had a C10 and was waiting for a new Concours. Took my buddies new zx14 for a ride then the next day went to the dealer to pick up a new C14 only to find out they denutted or as I call it detuned it. Bought a Busa and the C14 sits alot. The C14 really is a nicer and more refined bike than the Busa however the Busa puts a smile on my face where the C14 is just a really really nice cruiser yawn.
-
I'll start with, there is no way you will turn a C-14 into the same powerhouse as a Busa/ZX-14.
You can improve it a lot, but It's just not the same animal.
Depending on the $$ spent; you can increase it about 20-30 HP with pipes and flash.
On your removed flies; Ebay is your friend. Just change the whole assembly.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-2014-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ABS-ZG1400-Throttle-Body-Bodies-w-Fuel-Injectors/253391582274?epid=1723704312&hash=item3aff50b442:g:pdUAAOSwVVRaa~vZ&vxp=mtr (https://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-2014-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ABS-ZG1400-Throttle-Body-Bodies-w-Fuel-Injectors/253391582274?epid=1723704312&hash=item3aff50b442:g:pdUAAOSwVVRaa~vZ&vxp=mtr)
If you opt to buy another throttle body, you could buy ZX-14 throttle bodies with injectors instead {they are a bit bigger}, install them and {possibly} find a flash for that set up...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/06-07-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-THROTTLE-BODIES-W-FUEL-INJECTORS-COMPLETE-NICE/263461622142?fits=Make%3AKawasaki&hash=item3d5789517e:g:fLUAAOSwKwVabAdi&vxp=mtr (https://www.ebay.com/itm/06-07-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-THROTTLE-BODIES-W-FUEL-INJECTORS-COMPLETE-NICE/263461622142?fits=Make%3AKawasaki&hash=item3d5789517e:g:fLUAAOSwKwVabAdi&vxp=mtr)
Daytona {and others}, have already done the fly removal trick w/controller, and many went back to flash with flies..
I know Daytona knows a lot more about this than I...
Ride safe, Ted
-
... Took my buddies new zx14 for a ride then the next day went to the dealer to pick up a new C14 only to find out they denutted or as I call it detuned it.
Oh man are you gonna get it. Just wait til Max shows up!!
:popcorn:
-
:rotflmao: :popcorn:
-
Oh man are you gonna get it. Just wait til Max shows up!!
:popcorn:
Thats why I did it.DETUNED
-
I'll start with, there is no way you will turn a C-14 into the same powerhouse as a Busa/ZX-14.
You can improve it a lot, but It's just not the same animal.
Depending on the $$ spent; you can increase it about 20-30 HP with pipes and flash.
On your removed flies; Ebay is your friend. Just change the whole assembly.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-2014-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ABS-ZG1400-Throttle-Body-Bodies-w-Fuel-Injectors/253391582274?epid=1723704312&hash=item3aff50b442:g:pdUAAOSwVVRaa~vZ&vxp=mtr (https://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-2014-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ABS-ZG1400-Throttle-Body-Bodies-w-Fuel-Injectors/253391582274?epid=1723704312&hash=item3aff50b442:g:pdUAAOSwVVRaa~vZ&vxp=mtr)
If you opt to buy another throttle body, you could buy ZX-14 throttle bodies with injectors instead {they are a bit bigger}, install them and {possibly} find a flash for that set up...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/06-07-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-THROTTLE-BODIES-W-FUEL-INJECTORS-COMPLETE-NICE/263461622142?fits=Make%3AKawasaki&hash=item3d5789517e:g:fLUAAOSwKwVabAdi&vxp=mtr (https://www.ebay.com/itm/06-07-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-THROTTLE-BODIES-W-FUEL-INJECTORS-COMPLETE-NICE/263461622142?fits=Make%3AKawasaki&hash=item3d5789517e:g:fLUAAOSwKwVabAdi&vxp=mtr)
Daytona {and others}, have already done the fly removal trick w/controller, and many went back to flash with flies..
I know Daytona knows a lot more about this than I...
Ride safe, Ted
Familiar with the internal changes. I was going to install a turbo till I found out part of the denutting consisted of lower compression cast pistons.
-
I still have the removed screws and plates, however one of the screws twisted off so it would make reinstalling them a chore. I havent even thought about picking a vendor for the reflash. I was under the impression once the flies were removed there was no flash available and not much increase in hp would be realized.
Reflashing isn't just about peak horse power, it is also about responsiveness (which is VERY important). Now, you gained a lot of the responsiveness by removing the flies, but it will lack the "finesse" that makes the C14 so very very nice. A good flash [without removing the secondary butterflies] really changes the bike immediately, and all for the better (except the intake noise is louder). Others have posted how much nicer the bike is when they re-installed the "flies" and reflashed it.
My only disappointment with the bike since the first time I picked the bike up was the disappointing hp vs a zx14. I had a C10 and was waiting for a new Concours. Took my buddies new zx14 for a ride then the next day went to the dealer to pick up a new C14 only to find out they denutted or as I call it detuned it.
It isn't really "detuned", it is "re-tuned" for different/specific purposes like fuel economy, smoothness, comfort, reliability, lower maintenance, etc. Everything in life is a tradeoff :) What the C14 is designed/tuned to do, it does well.... except they could have done it better, which is why reflashing helps the bike really become what it should have been in the first place (because they robbed way too much responsiveness). But if you aren't looking for refinement, then the C14 probably isn't the best bike for ya, the ZX14 might be a better choice. Nothing wrong with that.
Oh man are you gonna get it. Just wait til Max shows up!!
I never want to disappoint!
-
...
It isn't really "detuned", it is "re-tuned" for different/specific purposes like fuel economy, smoothness, comfort, reliability, lower maintenance, etc. Everything in life is a tradeoff :) What the C14 is designed/tuned to do, it does well.... except they could have done it better, which is why reflashing helps the bike really become what it should have been in the first place (because they robbed way too much responsiveness). But if you aren't looking for refinement, then the C14 probably isn't the best bike for ya, the ZX14 might be a better choice. Nothing wrong with that.
...
Would you settle for "untuned"?
:P
-
Would you settle for "untuned"?
:P
surely an untuned engine wouldn't run correctly full stop ;)
-
surely an untuned engine wouldn't run correctly full stop ;)
Lesstuned?
Undertuned?
-
Lesstuned?
Undertuned?
No, no, and no. Every synonym you offered is still negative and it is not negative. Here are better alternatives:
Differenttuned
Crosstuned
Othertuned
Purposetuned
Alternativetuned
-
Tuna
-
piano
-
wrong thread
-
But not a fish.
-
I will add, due to the mention earlier of "lower compression"... this also ignores that the C14 has variable valve timing which affects the DYNAMIC compression ratio. No such thing on the ZX14 which doesn't have variable valves- it is designed with a fixed increased cam overlap and a set compression ratio (rougher low RPM riding, lower torque at lower RPM, increased deposits, lower MPG and efficiency). The number you see on the C14 is the STATIC compression ratio, but the DYNAMIC one increases as the valves are adjusted (the effective compression ratio goes up). This is also why the C14 calls for high octane gas, even though it seemingly should be fine on lower octane when just looking at the static compression ratio.
What does this mean? The ZX14 (non R, the R is a different engine and not what the C14 was based on) is the same displacement, same engine block, and mostly the same head (different cams) (although throttle bodies, and intake/exhaust are larger, which fits the high RPM flow goal) as the C14. Kawasaki's goal with the C14 was to increase the lower end torque WITHOUT sacrificing smoothness, efficiency, and reliability. That is why they lowered the STATIC compression ratio (and reduced the TB/intake/exhaust size), and slapped on an expensive VVT so it wouldn't sacrifice too much higher RPM performance in the process. And it works. One only has to stop focusing on PEAK HP and look at the lower end torque curve. For example, the stock C14 at 3KRPM is around 66 FtLbs and the stock ZX14 is *LESS* at around 55! At 4K, the C14 is around 85 and the ZX14 around 66. (I took numbers from several dyno charts and runs and averaged them... the trend was clear). That translates into better "grunt" for the C14 with normal and spirited lower-RPM driving... exactly what you would want and expect from a bike designed for a touring role. And that performance (yes, it is a measure of performance) isn't free.... IT WAS "TUNED" (if you must use that word) TO BE THAT WAY.
To tie this back to reflashing- the ZX14 has fewer gains at the low-end from reflashing. Why? Because I think Kawasaki went a little overboard with "driveability" aspect of the programming of the C14 secondaries. One look at what a reflash does there makes that shockingly clear: At 3K RPM, the stock C14 at 70FtLbs of torque goes to 80 with Steve's, 90 with Ivan's, and 93 with Guhl's! That is an average of +18 FtLbs, that is a huge change; 26% more!
But torque and HP gains are NOTHING compared to the apparent FEEL of power when reflashing (or removing the secondaries). Why? Because the worst thing the secondary butterflies do on the stock C14 is introduce severe lag at lower RPM between you asking for power and actually getting it. They are effectively overriding the throttle input and delaying it. You might ask for 75% throttle and the computer says "nah, let's make that 50% for now." That is something YOU CAN'T SEE ON A DYNO CHART!! Why? Because a dyno chart has no element of time in it, whatsoever. It is a plot of RPM vs. power.
Footnotes
http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno/9268-2006-Kawasaki-ZX-14-Dyno.jpg (http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno/9268-2006-Kawasaki-ZX-14-Dyno.jpg)
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/_/rsrc/1505486038941/concours1400/EVOLUTION%20vs%20Stock.PNG (https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/_/rsrc/1505486038941/concours1400/EVOLUTION%20vs%20Stock.PNG)
http://areapnolimits.com/images/product/c14_dyno_big.gif (http://areapnolimits.com/images/product/c14_dyno_big.gif)
http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=68/category_id=13/mode=prod/prd68.htm
[url=http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2006/11/01november06_concoursvvt]http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2006/11/01november06_concoursvvt (http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=68/category_id=13/mode=prod/prd68.htm)
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/variable-valve-timing-technology-for-motorcycles (https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/variable-valve-timing-technology-for-motorcycles)
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400%20Stk%20vs%20Ivans%20ECU_stock%20ex.gif (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400%20Stk%20vs%20Ivans%20ECU_stock%20ex.gif)
https://a4.pbase.com/o6/41/9841/1/135735643.jqdNLgKf.C144thGearPullsStockvsMod.jpg (https://a4.pbase.com/o6/41/9841/1/135735643.jqdNLgKf.C144thGearPullsStockvsMod.jpg)
-
Footnotes
http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno/9268-2006-Kawasaki-ZX-14-Dyno.jpg (http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno/9268-2006-Kawasaki-ZX-14-Dyno.jpg)
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/_/rsrc/1505486038941/concours1400/EVOLUTION%20vs%20Stock.PNG (https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/_/rsrc/1505486038941/concours1400/EVOLUTION%20vs%20Stock.PNG)
http://areapnolimits.com/images/product/c14_dyno_big.gif (http://areapnolimits.com/images/product/c14_dyno_big.gif)
http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=68/category_id=13/mode=prod/prd68.htm
[url=http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2006/11/01november06_concoursvvt]http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2006/11/01november06_concoursvvt (http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=68/category_id=13/mode=prod/prd68.htm)
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/variable-valve-timing-technology-for-motorcycles (https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/variable-valve-timing-technology-for-motorcycles)
dang! max', a post with footnotes?....very impressive. You've got my vote for post of the year. Nothing this good since the crash dummy headlights and Kerby's first post.
For example, the stock C14 at 3KRPM is around 70 FtLbs and the stock ZX14 is a lot *LESS* at around 50! At 4K, the C14 is around 80 and the ZX14 around 70.
So folks you heard it here first, max' says the ZX14 is the detuned bike! :rotflmao: :stirpot:
-
...
So folks you heard it here first, max' says the ZX14 is the detuned bike! :rotflmao: :stirpot:
Lesstuned?
Undertuned??
-
:banghead:
-
Notice what Ivan is getting from the Concours 14. His gains are larger than anyone else's for the C14.
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400.htm (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400.htm)
-
dang! max', you had me at DYNAMIC compression.
So folks you heard it here first, max' says the ZX14 is the detuned & dethroned bike! :rotflmao: :stirpot:
FIFY :)
-
Notice what Ivan is getting from the Concours 14. His gains are larger than anyone else's for the C14.
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400.htm (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400.htm)
rcannon409, I doubt you'll get the flak on this forum for hawking Ivan's services as you did on the other one,...but....let's stay with the program here please. We are picking on max' (in a friendly way) so please use the proper vocabulary. e.g. "Ivan un-detunes the c14 better than anyone"; "Ivan removes the detuning that Kawasaki put into the c14" or words to that effect. OK? ;D
...also..extra points if you can work in "Ivan's flash automatically turns on the high beam during the day for safer riding" (of course you may get some flak from Ivan for that one, but it might be worth it).
-
Max sed; One only has to stop focusing on PEAK HP and look at the lower end torque curve.
Max, your mostly wasting your breath. I've been saying this for years and mostly,, they still talk about peak HP.
I guess this means, your dethroned ??
Ride safe, Ted
-
Max, your mostly wasting your breath. I've been saying this for years
I seem to gravitate toward lost causes :)
-
Sometimes the lost causes are the most important causes of all.....
Long Live KiPass!
:-)
Brian
I seem to gravitate toward lost causes :)
-
Marty, the de-tuning idea is right on. With that in mind, do you suppose there is a full power version in Kawasakis test lab?
Kawasaki de-tuned their ninja 1000 in a very similar manner, right down to the exhaust header pipes being to small.
With regards to the rest.I'll try....
...I know Ivans ecu flash will not turn on the high beam lights. That would be silly. However, with his flash you wont even need the lights on your bike. Many riders removed them. Would have liked to do the same on my car. Especially after Auto Zone charged me 100.00, per bulb, for my HID lamps.....but thats not the point.
But, theres no possible way to make it backfire, or shoot flames. It just does not do that.
-
I'm not sure you were catching my drift here. But none the less I'll go with it....ah so what you're saying here...
The flames and the glowing are often times enough to light up a 4 lane roadway.
....is that despite what Ivan's website implies, that even with the fuel cut elimination that it still spouts flames and pops? :stirpot: (sometimes I have to pick on someone new and give max' a well deserved rest)
Well no flames coming out the front door, that's a good sign.
-
Nah, let's pick on Max. (He err "replies" when ya abuse him). <grin>
{And if your pickin' on him, your NOT pickin' on me!}
Ride safe, Ted
-
Take a look at zx14 vs c14 dyno graph. zx14 produces way more low end torque than the so called low end torque c14 Queen that they denutted .
-
Marty, the de-tuning idea is right on.
No it isn't, and he is one of the people teasing.
With that in mind, do you suppose there is a full power version in Kawasakis test lab?
???
Please define "full power." The C14. stock *is* "full power." They didn't remove any "power", they shifted the power band to a location more useful for touring, MPG, ride, comfort. Or are we just talking about the secondary flies programming?
-
Take a look at zx14 vs c14 dyno graph. zx14 produces way more low end torque than the so called low end torque c14
You are welcome to look at my footnotes, the graphs are right there. Based on my research, your statement is not correct. Larger throttle bodies, intake, and exhaust, and more cam overlap do not translate into more power at lower RPMs, it usually means lower torque, rougher riding, more vibration, less efficiency (lower MPG, more emissions), more deposits (less reliability).
-
Oddly enough, while I think of a stock C-14 as 'neutered' by the secondaries, maxtog is actually right in this post, in my opinion (I am not implying he is wrong in any other post(s); this is not a left- handed compliment). The secondaries are wide open at 7K RPM if the main throttle is wide open (WOT), so 1) max. power would still be available in a stock C-14 and 2) it probably would not make much difference in, say, 1/4 mile drag times given a skilled rider because the bike would have the secondaries open for the entire trip anyway.
That said, I do not and never have though of the secondary butterfly 'neutering' (my choice of terminology here, personal choice) as a positive thing nor do I think it has any advantages save one, and that is the relatively unimportant lowering of engine noise at low throttle and power stages. But at the same time, I never really though removing the 'flies and correcting the air / fuel ratio was in any way a performance or overall power enhancement, it merely yields the 1,400 cc motorcycle I thought I bought in the first place. A C-14 is not a good choice for a beginner motorcyclist or a first motorcycle IMO, and those buying one should not need the bottom end of the engine's performance cut in half to be 'safe' or make it a suitable touring bike.
When I buy my next C-14, it will have the 'flies in it for the ride home 'cause it is just too much trouble to remove them in the seller's parking lot or driveway.
Anyway, this is just my opinion and I certainly did not mean to get in the way of the discussion of exactly what the 'factory fresh' condition of the C-14 should be called. So please, carry on..... :-)
Brian
<snip>
???
Please define "full power." The C14. stock *is* "full power." They didn't remove any "power", they shifted the power band to a location more useful for touring, MPG, ride, comfort.
-
You are welcome to look at my footnotes, the graphs are right there. Based on my research, your statement is not correct.
And if you are having trouble comparing the two graphs (they are different scales and resolution), I worked my magic with GIMP, and LibreOffice Draw to scale and combine the two in an overlay. You're welcome :)
Granted, there are lots of different dyno charts out there, I tried to pick one that seemed reliable and representative.
-
From the earlier ecu discussion the comparisson from Ivans reflash thread it really show how much the c14 is detuned :)
-
From the earlier ecu discussion the comparison from Ivans reflash thread it really show how much the c14 is detuned :)
:goodpost:
I don't care what max' says about you tb', you're OK in my book! :finger_fing11:
-
:goodpost:
I don't care what max' says about you tb', you're OK in my book! :finger_fing11:
Stir the pot, add a little fuel to the fire.
-
I don't care what max' says about you tb', you're OK in my book! :finger_fing11:
I didn't say anything about anyone...
-
I couldn't resist replying here as the conversation started to compare the ZX14 and the C14 ...
Thought I would share a comparison dyno chart...
This is the most accurate comparison that I can come up with from my old archives.
Both bikes are unrestricted and tuned by me with the same exhaust on my dyno... years apart, but the conditions are pretty close.
I believe this shows what the engineers designed in it's purest form.
Same exhaust, fuel and timing adjusted for both.
Sub-throttles removed on the ZX, and adjusted for best power on the C14)
I don't believe that stock to stock is a true comparison as far as engine design is concerned because they are restricted differently.
Ivan
-
The torque numbers are surprising.
-
The bigger cams in the Zx just move everything higher up...
What they gain higher up is equal to what they lose at the bottom.
Ivan
-
I couldn't resist replying here as the conversation started to compare the ZX14 and the C14 ...
Thought I would share a comparison dyno chart...
This is the most accurate comparison that I can come up with from my old archives.
Both bikes are unrestricted and tuned by me with the same exhaust on my dyno... years apart, but the conditions are pretty close.
I believe this shows what the engineers designed in it's purest form.
Same exhaust, fuel and timing adjusted for both.
Sub-throttles removed on the ZX, and adjusted for best power on the C14)
I don't believe that stock to stock is a true comparison as far as engine design is concerned because they are restricted differently.
Ivan
Thanks for the reply. Im curious what they looked like stock for stock. I removed the flies on my bike and added the zx 14 exhaust. When running a completely stock zx14 it was even to about 30ft,after that the zx14 walked away like the c14 was a 600. Do you currently offer a tune for the c14 with flies removed and using a zx14 exhaust.
-
The torque numbers are surprising.
Not to me they aren't. It is further support to what I have been saying for years now.
The bigger cams in the Zx just move everything higher up...
What they gain higher up is equal to what they lose at the bottom.
Exactly. Thanks for sharing, Ivan. The differences will actually be MORE exaggerated when they are stock exhaust (the C14 will have even less peak HP and more lower torque). The stock C14 exhaust system is *NOT* restrictive for its purpose (but it can be one's goal is is to try and change that purpose by raising top HP at the expense of lower RPM power and efficiency).
The C14 is designed for higher power at lower RPM, smoother, and more efficient, like a touring bike should be.
The ZX14 is designed for higher power at higher RPM, like a super-sport bike should be.
Neither is "detuned", they are both explicitly, purposeful set for their individual roles and goals. Kawasaki is not stupid. It would have been far easier and *less* expensive for them to just use the identical ZX14 cams (with lack of VVT), intake, exhaust system, and TB's in both models. They chose a far more difficult and expensive path to create two bikes that excel at different tasks. As such, they had to expend far more R&D, source and handle far more different parts, produce much more documentation, etc.
Side comment: There is nothing wrong with wanting a C14 that behaves like a ZX14. There is nothing wrong with trying to change it to be that way (and you can come close, if you want). Some people might be perfectly willing to sacrifice the C14's nice power profile for a different power profile, while keeping some of the nice non-engine things that the C14 has and the ZX14 lacks. But there is something very wrong with criticizing the C14 because it doesn't behave like a ZX14.
-
Max - You could save yourself a helluva lotta time and effort if you would just type up one incredibly looong, detailed, thorough rebuttal to those of us on the side of "detuned"*, address every single detuned-related statement/opinion/info you've ever come across that you feel you need to correct, then post it somewhere on this site ... and the next time you need to defend the detuned C14, you can reply by simply posting your link ... and do it again ... and again ... and again ...
And the other beauty would be that could go back and modify / revise / correct your Detune Rebuttal as many times as you like ... again ... and again ...
* aka "denutted" ;D
-
The 2 bikes are like Arnie & Danny in Twins
-
Max - You could save yourself a helluva lotta time and effort if you would just type up one incredibly looong, detailed, thorough rebuttal
I will sacrifice efficiency in the name of creating more opportunities because I wouldn't dream of depriving people of their entertainment.
-
I will sacrifice efficiency in the name of creating more opportunities because I wouldn't dream of depriving people of their entertainment.
..and that is why we L♥ve you max'! ...at least until midnight. :-*
-
Thanks for the reply. I'm curious what they looked like stock for stock. I removed the flies on my bike and added the zx 14 exhaust. When running a completely stock zx14 it was even to about 30ft,after that the zx14 walked away like the c14 was a 600. Do you currently offer a tune for the c14 with flies removed and using a zx14 exhaust.
TB, many of us have asked for a stock vs stock, or a stock C-14 with ZX exhaust plot,, for years.
Many have this on their bikes, but no one has ever produced a stock C-14 with ZX exhaust plot. {and I'm not sure that one exists}
If someone has such a plot; please post it for us to see.
Here is a discussion {with plot} for a C-14 with a slip-on.
http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/c14-slip-on-dyno-results/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/c14-slip-on-dyno-results/)
If you use the numbers from this plot and guestimate;
I think; * the stock C-14 / ZX plot would be similar..
** the low end torque should be a bit lower {approx. 72 @ 3400} and go above the ZG/ZX Tq. line (@ approx. 4500).
*** the peak HP will be a bit higher {about 154 @9500}.
Ride safe, Ted
-
Here is a discussion {with plot} for a C-14 with a slip-on. http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/c14-slip-on-dyno-results/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/c14-slip-on-dyno-results/)
Unfortunately, can't see without a login. Changing only the muffler [to something "larger" or higher-flow] should do nothing on the C14 (performance wise) except maybe a very minor higher-RPM HP gain and a minor lower-RPM torque reduction (if at all; probably just noise in the comparison due to variation in runs and such). So it could still be considered pretty much stock.
-
All the same charts are on my web page here:
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400.htm (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400.htm)
2nd chart down the page
Slip-on gains a little more than you think... all above 5000 rpm.
If I have violated any rules by posting a link to my page, please remove it. (thanks)
Ivan
-
TMI Marty, TMI!
:-)
Brian
..and that is why we L♥ve you max'! ...at least until midnight. :-*
-
2nd chart down the page[...]
Slip-on gains a little more than you think... all above 5000 rpm.
Yeah, +7 (~ 5%) at peak is more than the typical average of around +3 (~2%) I have seen in the past (on other charts). But certainly believable; I assume it will vary by brand/type. Whether one would consider that "significant" or not is debatable. I am not sure anyone would ever be able to detect it when riding...
My advice is to use that money to reflash. THAT is something that is immediately very noticeable by anyone in just about any use or condition. :)
-
The plot's didn't attach when I posted the "Slip-on Dyno" discussion.
Not sure why??
Ride safe, Ted
-
The plot's didn't attach when I posted the "Slip-on Dyno" discussion.
Not sure why??
Can't help with that, but I can post Ivan's (I doubt he would mind)...
-
Most independent tests weren't done properly in the past... ;)
Hence my "different" results which are done properly.
All race slip-ons will give the same result... Delkevic yields the same as Akrapovic.
I believe that most exhaust manufacturers will show slightly conservative results to lessen the possibility of false advertisement.
Ivan
-
Thanks for the reply. Im curious what they looked like stock for stock. I removed the flies on my bike and added the zx 14 exhaust. When running a completely stock zx14 it was even to about 30ft,after that the zx14 walked away like the c14 was a 600. Do you currently offer a tune for the c14 with flies removed and using a zx14 exhaust.
I have a file that will work for you.
Give me a call when you have time and we can discuss it.
Ivan
-
What's been left out of the entire conversation as far as I've seen is the effect of VVT. It's not insignificant, and a big part of why the torque curve on the c-14 is as wide and flat as it is.
Correction - Max got it in reply 17. One thing I would suggest though is to move the discussion from one of "compression ratio" which is an fixed mathematical ratio to "compression pressure". That tends to help me think in terms of what the engine is seeing / reacting to at a given rpm / throttle opening.
Steve
-
the effect of VVT. It's not insignificant, and a big part of why the torque curve on the c-14 is as wide and flat as it is.
VVT is what allowed Kawasaki to "tune" (design) the C14 for low-end torque, proving more usable power where it is most used in normal riding, but without destroying high-end power in the process. It is still a compromise (like everything is), but far better than it would been had they totally omitted VVT. An interesting note is that VVT used in the C14 is a good system- it is truly variable, unlike some of the earlier systems which are only 2-stage, "on/off."
Max got it in reply 17. One thing I would suggest though is to move the discussion from one of "compression ratio" which is an fixed mathematical ratio to "compression pressure". That tends to help me think in terms of what the engine is seeing / reacting to at a given rpm / throttle opening.
That is probably more accurate. I have always seen "static" vs. "dynamic" compression ratio. Although valve overlap/timing can be expressed that way, it seems more valid when talking about forced induction (like turbo and superchargers).
-
VVT is what allowed Kawasaki to "tune" (design) the C14 for low-end torque, proving more usable power where it is most used in normal riding, but without destroying high-end power in the process. It is still a compromise (like everything is), but far better than it would been had they totally omitted VVT. An interesting note is that VVT used in the C14 is a good system- it is truly variable, unlike some of the earlier systems which are only 2-stage, "on/off."
I'm not sure about that, Max. The oscilloscope readings I've seen has the VVT as an on / off system, with advance coming in around 32-3500 rpm.
For those who really don't know how valuable VVT is, I'm adding a dyno torque chart (from the interwebz). Compare the fjr to the concours. See that pancake top torque curve on the concours? that's because of VVT.
Some might think that the low end gains achieved during tuning come from changes to vvt control. Not so. here's my stock Vs flashed / slipon chart - 15# TQ gained at 3000 rpm. No changes to VVT at all.
The biggest gains in power on the concours is low hanging fruit - get the secondaries to stop restricting the intake. But power and dyno charts do not necessarily make for an overall improvement to rideablity.
Steve
-
I'm not sure about that, Max. The oscilloscope readings I've seen has the VVT as an on / off system, with advance coming in around 32-3500 rpm.
I could very well be wrong on that. But I read more than one article describing the system as truly variable. Unfortunately, I didn't keep the data/links, so I can't refer back to them now. I actually, initially thought the system was on/off and was surprised to learn it wasn't. It seems to be very hard to find information. Searching now, I will just offer this:
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/variable-valve-timing-technology-for-motorcycles (https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/variable-valve-timing-technology-for-motorcycles)
"The Kawasaki Concours mechanism is a phasing system[...] Depending on the side of the vanes that gets the oil, the sprocket and the cam are rotated clockwise or counterclockwise relative to one another, advancing or retarding the valve timing. The alteration is progressive, not discrete, which gives the advantage of continuous alteration as rpm rise and fall. Kawasaki’s goal here was to strengthen midrange torque, and it worked."
My so-named [by others, not me] "Mad Max" searching skills can find nothing to contradict that right now. But I would certainly love to see any information that supports or contradicts it. I will posit what you were seeing could be just some indicator that VVT has started, but not necessarily how much of it.... a lot like a simple WOT throttle switch could indicate that throttle is over a certain percent but not what the percent is after that (not the best example, but just something I thought of quickly).
-
Let me just respond this way... there's tons of misinformation on the internet. I don't have all the answers either, in fact generally more questions than answers. But I've learned that the internet is full of mis-information, and the manufactures are as good at it as anyone else. Steve
-
Let me just respond this way... there's tons of misinformation on the internet. I don't have all the answers either, in fact generally more questions than answers. But I've learned that the internet is full of mis-information, and the manufactures are as good at it as anyone else. Steve
Couldn't agree more. Usually all we can hope to do is find different sources, cross reference, look at who those sources are, and try to make judgements on it all and throw in some face-validity checks. This is why I was initially surprised by what I was getting on the operation of the VVT, because it went contrary to what I expected- I expected a bike system to be simple, and they typically lag way behind what is typical in car technology of the time. Again, I hope someone else can find something more definitive and authoritative on how the Concours' VVT operates. Meanwhile...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorbikes/2747759/Kawasaki-1400GTR-In-for-the-long-haul.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorbikes/2747759/Kawasaki-1400GTR-In-for-the-long-haul.html)
"The Kawasaki's VVT system is developed from Mitsubishi's car engine design, and advances or retards the inlet camshaft through 24 degrees according to throttle position and revs, in order to produce maximum torque.[...]The VVT itself works extremely well, with none of the annoying power step that so irritates on the VFR"
And yet:
"Kawasaki’s GTR1400 – are based on hydraulic cam phasers. These allow the camshaft to rotate a few degrees in relation to its drive sprocket, either advancing or retarding the valve timing in the process. Oil is forced into chambers inside the phaser to move and lock the camshaft into its advanced or retarded position."
Sigh.
Kawasaki's old video doesn't help much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZXepU7Sks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZXepU7Sks) The concept can still be on/off or truly variable, just depends on how it is programmed. I watched/read far too much about the GENERIC system at this point, and it is clear it can operate either way. The computer knows exactly the position of the cam by sensor, and could absolutely discretely control and put the cam anywhere in the range it wants using the VVT oil control solenoid that is on the Concours.
-
"Kawasaki’s GTR1400 – are based on hydraulic cam phasers. These allow the camshaft to rotate a few degrees in relation to its drive sprocket, either advancing or retarding the valve timing in the process. Oil is forced into chambers inside the phaser to move and lock the camshaft into its advanced or retarded position."[/i]
(http://www.t
[i)
Having disassembled a vvt, I can tell you this is incorrect - there is a locking pin when the vvt is at idle in the retarded position, but there isn't a locking pin at full advance. Steve
-
Having disassembled a vvt, I can tell you this is incorrect - there is a locking pin when the vvt is at idle in the retarded position, but there isn't a locking pin at full advance. Steve
What you just said is consistent with videos I have seen of various similar systems. One reason I highlighted it :) I was wondering why it would "lock" into the most advanced position, and if that meant anything in the discussion. Just goes to show about misinformation, again...
This would have made great separate thread.
-
The only document I've seen says it is "stepless", I took that to mean it was infinitly variable (in theory, but possibly is only as variable as the cam sensor output is variable).
I'm not sure if this came from a Gen I shop manual or perhaps a KDS operation manual, but it appears genuine Kawasaki documentation to me. (I'm easily fooled.)
-
The only document I've seen says it is "stepless", I took that to mean it was infinitly variable (in theory, but possibly is only as variable as the cam sensor output is variable).
I'm not sure if this came from a Gen I shop manual or perhaps a KDS operation manual, but it appears genuine Kawasaki documentation to me. (I'm easily fooled.)
That is, indeed, from the factory service manual. Good find, and it was right under my nose :) And yes, it seems to pretty solidly support my original belief that the system is truly variable:
"... the variable valve timing mechanism steplessly varies the amount of valve overlap in accordance with engine speed and throttle position sensor data."
And the diagram clearly shows it moves the cam to a "target" position though feedback from the cam sensor. All the wording supports complete variability, none of it being "on/off." They even have examples with a "neutral" position- which is neither advanced fully nor retarded fully.
-
Yes, as I understand the system, the VVT is infinitely adjustable, not binary (fully retarded or fully advanced). Cam advance varies with at least RPM but possibly also perceived engine load though that is speculation on my part. Just like the secondary throttle plates, it is not an 'On / Off' system but one of variable change.
What makes it a bit hard to fathom is that the valving looks like 'bang- bang' control (as a toaster- oven: the element is either On or Off but bouncing between the two creates an effective temperature band), which it is, but with the hysteresis built into hydraulic systems, it really translates to a step-less, variable system.
There is another system out there that does VVT from Suzuki and that is also very interesting: it is done by using 3D camshafts. Instead of a profile across the entire lobe of a camshaft lobe being the same, Suzuki uses a varying profile across the camshaft and then moves the camshaft along its own axis to alter not only the advance of the cam(s) but the actual cam profile regarding duration! A very interesting and effective approach. Compared with a C-14, the only choice is the timing of the cam profile start; the profile itself is ground into the camshaft and cannot be altered.
Brian
The only document I've seen says it is "stepless", I took that to mean it was infinitly variable (in theory, but possibly is only as variable as the cam sensor output is variable).
I'm not sure if this came from a Gen I shop manual or perhaps a KDS operation manual, but it appears genuine Kawasaki documentation to me. (I'm easily fooled.)
-
Here you guys go.... ;)
(Text copied from my post on COG....)
Folks,
I just did these tests today as it was a little slow this Friday afternoon.
Not even the magazines can give you these tests and a window to see this information.
The first chart is full camshaft advance vs. full camshaft retard... (the 2 extremes of the VVT actuator)
The second chart shows the same 2 runs with my programming added to contrast the two extremes... (my cam timing)
Obviously, proper cam timing is essential to peak performance, but having this variable makes the best of both worlds... especially when I can adjust the settings to make the best spread of the power at all rpms. ;)
I chose to use my tuned file for these tests because it shows the effects better at the extremes and also with the raised rev-limiter
Enjoy,
Ivan
-
Here you guys go.... ;) http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/vvt-variable-valve-timing-dyno-tests/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/vvt-variable-valve-timing-dyno-tests/)
Remember, we who do not have logins can't see attachments on that other forum... but I can copy/paste at least what you said:
"I just did these tests today as it was a little slow this Friday afternoon. The first chart is full camshaft advance vs. full camshaft retard... (the 2 extremes of the VVT actuator). The second chart shows the same 2 runs with my programming added to contrast the two extremes... (my cam timing). Obviously, proper cam timing is essential to peak performance, but having this variable makes the best of both worlds... especially when I can adjust the settings to make the best spread of the power at all rpms. I chose to use my tuned file for these tests because it shows the effects better at the extremes and also with the raised rev-limiter"
Interesting. You said you are throwing a dyno with forcing the VVT into full retard and full advance. This can be done by externally overriding the VVT oil pump. That can [further] confirm variability if there is a third dyno chart that contrasts both, where the VVT is left to be computer controlled. The part I don't understand is that little bit where you said "(my cam timing)." That implies you have access to and are actively changing the VVT system with the ECU... but that is in direct conflict with saying "same 2 runs" (full advance and full retard). Clarification needed- just a mistype or something?
-
I have full control of the VVT on this bike in the ECU.
The full adv/retard in those tests was done through my ecu flash.
I'll move the charts into my above post when I come back from dinner. :)
Ivan
-
I have full control of the VVT on this bike in the ECU. The full adv/retard in those tests was done through my ecu flash.
Ok, like.... wow! I guess that puts several things to rest. Brings up more questions, too. But I am kinda worn out today :)
-
Look up ...... ;D
-
Nice work Ivan - seriously. I think most folks won't get what the test shows, but it's clear that the timing is variable, and that Kawasaki did a great job of getting the intake LC's on VVT map right.
Steve
-
Nice work Ivan - seriously. I think most folks won't get what the test shows, but it's clear that the timing is variable, and that Kawasaki did a great job of getting the intake LC's on VVT map right.
Yeah. I would even be a bit leery of messing with the VVT too much, since it has the potential of greatly affecting longevity in a quest for a little more gain here or there. One thing I think this (and other threads) effectively show, is that gains in one area typically lead to sacrifices and risk in another. Very "zen" and all :)
I tell you, one thing that would REALLY suck would be to switch to a new model bike and not have such offerings immediately available from dedicated people like you two and Guhl (there might be others, but those are the three I am most familiar with now), reversing some of the unnecessarily extreme emissions/sound/MPG stuff dialed into modern bikes. I know it is a lot of work, and in many ways, almost an art form.
Thanks
Great, now I am all sad and crap about the discontinuation of the Concours :(
-
Great, now I am all sad and crap about the discontinuation of the Concours :(
I know it's dc'ed in the euro market... do you know something I don't know about the US market? Steve
-
I know it's dc'ed in the euro market... do you know something I don't know about the US market? Steve
Only what has been discussed in the other threads- that the bike is, indeed, discontinued in all the non-NA markets, they didn't come out with a new color (instead, using "last year's" EU color), had only a single color available, and then introduced the "H2 SX" as a so-called "sport tourer" in other markets and as a quasi "sport tourer" in our market. To me, the writing is clearly on the wall. I expect the 2018 is the last C14, but I have no actual proof of that, yet. So my lamenting might be premature, but it seems pretty clear to me the days are now very numbered. I apologize for making it look like it actually happened when it is actually just my gut feeling.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22828.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22828.0)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22980.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22980.0)
-
I've not ridden a flashed bike but that said I'm happy enough with the stock performance thank you :)
Does what it says on the tin
-
+1,till I received the MOUNTAIN RUNNER flash.Trust me the difference is unbelievable in terms of low down/mid range performance and increased fuel economy.Turns the engine into a torque monster IMHO.
Never say never.
I forgot to add what you guys pay for it in "GOOD OLD USA,YOU WOULD BE MAD NOT TO GET IT"
There are riders here in Australia who are biting at the bit to get the Mountain Runner flash,and for measly price you guys pay for it its a no brainer IMHO.
-
I doubt it will be discontinued until there is a replacement or updated model.
If there are too many left in the warehouse, many times a Japanese manufacturer will skip a model year to use up existing stock.
The H2SX doesn't fit the place due to the price and physical size, riding position etc....
Most likely it will be updated at some point, hopefully with the 14R's engine and some new electronics.
-
Yeah. I would even be a bit leery of messing with the VVT too much, since it has the potential of greatly affecting longevity in a quest for a little more gain here or there. One thing I think this (and other threads) effectively show, is that gains in one area typically lead to sacrifices and risk in another. Very "zen" and all :)
What risk are you talking about?
-
I've not ridden a flashed bike but that said I'm happy enough with the stock performance thank you :)
If you had ridden a flashed bike, you would not be happy with yours, regardless of what you might believe now :) :)
-
If you had ridden a flashed bike, you would not be happy with yours, regardless of what you might believe now :) :)
I'll just be sure not to ride a flashed bike then :)
-
Most likely it will be updated at some point, hopefully with the 14R's engine and some new electronics.
I like your thinking, and I hope you are correct. I do feel however that max' is probably right about the C14's future. (Gosh! it hurts to type that out loud, for both reasons.)
Still, if Yamaha can make the FJR euro compliant (they did didn't they?) then I would think Kawasaki could with the c14 too. I just worry that the market isn't there anymore for these bikes.
I think they all need a screen that you can swipe with a finger while the bike drives itself before any of the younger gens will want one in enough numbers to make it profitable.
-
As far as meeting emissions....
Kawasaki has the most efficient combustion chamber of all the big 4... no problem meeting emissions with even the current one.
It comes down to how many will actually buy $$$$.
It's whether it's a worthwhile investment to go to the trouble to do it... most of the current sales are as leftovers because people try to save $$$ and it's been around a while.
Will lots of people actually spend the $15-16,000.00 or more for a new model ?
The younger generation as a whole is a big problem in many areas.... Disposable income is one of them for many.
Although there are many that are on the ball, but still don't make what they could....
Maybe things are going to change for the better???
I'm sure that R&D has been held back in many areas for the big 4 due to world economics as a whole...
Suzuki has had major setbacks over the last several years.
I'm sure that they all are being very careful as to where they are investing their money in new products until all the new rules get settled and they analyze the demand.
Be careful what you wish for... fly by wire sucks compared to a cable unless you have access to the things that control it. ;)
Ivan
-
I'm not sure you were catching my drift here. But none the less I'll go with it....ah so what you're saying here...
....is that despite what Ivan's website implies, that even with the fuel cut elimination that it still spouts flames and pops? :stirpot: (sometimes I have to pick on someone new and give max' a well deserved rest)
Well no flames coming out the front door, that's a good sign.
I know we were having fun, but in all seriousness, theres no way an Ivans flash makes the pipes glow or shoots flames.
I always liked that H2r Video, but honestly, the flashed bike wont shoot flame or make pipes glow.