Kawasaki Concours Forum
Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: harry76 on October 10, 2017, 04:03:51 PM
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http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2017/10/kawasaki-will-introduce-supercharged-sport-tourer-next-month-with-video/ (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2017/10/kawasaki-will-introduce-supercharged-sport-tourer-next-month-with-video/)
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This could be interesting, but keep in mind what I often see labeled as "Sport tourer" isn't really a sport tourer. It is just a sport bike (often with chain drive) that is more upright that they slap on some luggage and a semi-fixed windscreen. I am skeptical it will be a REAL sport tourer, like the Concours- with large alternator, shaft drive, full instrumentation, electric windscreen, heated grips, risable handbars, large fairings, extra detail to wind, heat, and vibration control, etc.
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Where is the paparazzi when you need them.
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This could be interesting, but keep in mind what I often see labeled as "Sport tourer" isn't really a sport tourer. It is just a sport bike (often with chain drive) that is more upright that they slap on some luggage and a semi-fixed windscreen. I am skeptical it will be a REAL sport tourer, like the Concours- with large alternator, shaft drive, full instrumentation, electric windscreen, heated grips, risable handbars, large fairings, extra detail to wind, heat, and vibration control, etc.
If the pictures I’ve seen are indeed of the new ST,
you’re gonna hate it.
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If the pictures I’ve seen are indeed of the new ST, you’re gonna hate it.
Being the pessimist I sometimes am, it wouldn't surprise me. And in which case the question would then be, would some "non-real ST" blown "ST" be what is destined to replace the C14? But let's hold that question until we see what comes.
I personally predict they just can't resist ruining a good thing by replacing it rather than evolving it. (Possible examples- replacing large analog tach/speedometer with small, wimpy digital readouts is not an improvement; shorting the frame is not an improvement; going all hyper-angular styling is not an improvement, abandoning shaft drive is not an improvement).
Now, if you take the C14 mostly like it is, plop in a blown 1 liter, we could have more performance, longer range, better fuel economy, and less weight to boot... keep tank size, keep the analogs but add a larger, more functional, color display, add cruise, all LED lighting, keep the fantastic warranty, transmission, and final drive, I might be salivating. But silver please, not black :)
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This video certainly caught my attention, but I too suspect it'll be more sportbike-like. Perhaps even a supercharged ZX14.
But I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for a Blower Concours.
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The cats out of the bag ....its a H2SX which is basically a Z1000SX type bike witha Supercharger making a stated 200 bhp. Plus a a TFT dash,, sat nav functionality, electric screen, heated grips, media connectivity and keyless ignition.
Z1000 SX and Versys will remain. GTR will go as it doesn't meet Euro 4 regulations
The H2SX will cost 20K base and approx 23K fully loaded
It looks nice and seems to have chain drive
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If it doesn't have cup holders, I'm not interested.
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How soon they forget when they turn to the darkside.
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:rotflmao: Quite!
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If it doesn't have cup holders, I'm not interested.
Nor any provision for a hip flask Jim ;)
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:yikes:
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This could be interesting, but keep in mind what I often see labeled as "Sport tourer" isn't really a sport tourer. It is just a sport bike (often with chain drive) that is more upright that they slap on some luggage and a semi-fixed windscreen. I am skeptical it will be a REAL sport tourer, like the Concours- with large alternator, shaft drive, full instrumentation, electric windscreen, heated grips, risable handbars, large fairings, extra detail to wind, heat, and vibration control, etc.
:thumbs: I think you hit the nail on the head Max.
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The cats out of the bag ....its a H2SX which is basically a Z1000SX type bike witha Supercharger making a stated 200 bhp. Plus a a TFT dash,, sat nav functionality, electric screen, heated grips, media connectivity and keyless ignition.
Z1000 SX and Versys will remain. GTR will go as it doesn't meet Euro 4 regulations
The H2SX will cost 20K base and approx 23K fully loaded
It looks nice and seems to have chain drive
So it won't be a sports tourer, it will be a small wheelbase, chain-driven standard with some accessories. Fail. Where are you seeing this info?
GTR will go as it doesn't meet Euro 4 regulations
Will it disappear in Europe or everywhere??? This could explain why the GTR disappeared on the EU site but not the USA/other sites. I also noted they are calling the ZRR1400 a "sport tourer", which it is not (not even close), and saying it is Euro 4 compliant. How can the ZZR14 be Euro 4 and the GTR 14 not?
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How can the ZZR14 be Euro 4 and the GTR 14 not?
Wasn't the ZZR14 upgraded changed in 2012 in displacement AND throttle by wire, etc. ?
All I can find about the new supercharged bike (other than the video) is this:
The Balanced Supercharged engine shown at the Tokyo Motor Show in 2015 was similar to the H2’s 1000cc four-cylinder but featured a clever new supercharger design. It used variable intake vanes to alter the airflow into the supercharger, with the intention of increasing low-end torque and efficiency rather than going for out-and-out power like the H2.
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Wasn't the ZZR14 upgraded changed in 2012 in displacement AND throttle by wire, etc. ?
I see nothing that mentions throttle-by-wire. But even if it had that, it shouldn't affect emissions or mileage because it already had computer-controlled secondary throttle plates, just like the C14. And the small displacement bump would hurt emissions and mileage, not help.
Incidentally, until they "upgraded" in 2012, it didn't even have two fans (the C14 did in 2008) or a slipper clutch (the C14 did in 2008) or traction control (the C14 had it in 2010).
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They bored it out and gave it 50 extra HP.
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They bored it out and gave it 50 extra HP.
Both of which make it more difficult to obtain EURO 4 compliance.
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Well here it is: https://www.cycleworld.com/2018-kawasaki-h2-sx-sport-tourer-debut (https://www.cycleworld.com/2018-kawasaki-h2-sx-sport-tourer-debut)
Chain drive, which is disappointing of course but pretty much as expected. For those that use their bike as a
daily commuter and an occasional touring bike I guess it's not that viable. I was thinking it's still in the running
as a replacement bike for my C14 when mine runs out of warranty in 2021 but maybe not. They didn't mention
anything about increased electrical power for accessories which is definitly one of he C14's strong points. For me
it's still in the running (although the new Honda 'wing looks good too) because of they way I ride. I'm either on a trip or it sits.
I might go on 3 day rides a year.
I usually have to add new tires and change oil etc before any trip, so adding a little chain maintenance before leaving
is not that big of a deal, especially since I'd be going on a trip with more power, about the same torque, better fuel mileage
(reportedly) and almost 200 lbs less weight. Time will tell. I'm getting on in years, so I may even quit riding by then? :-\ :-[ :(
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I see nothing that mentions throttle-by-wire.
...Most notably added to the Kawasaki ZX-14R is the addition traction control, and ride-by-wire throttle control system....
Is "ride by wire" the same as "throttle by wire"? I'm not sure, but it is what made me think it is throttle by wire and would need a reflash to change
throttle settings which was why I was under the impression it met euro 4 standards... but unlike others here, I'm wrong a lot. :(
I guess a shop manual could tell us, but I'm not buying one. I'm sort of losing interest at this point.
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/2012-kawasaki-zx-14r-zzr1400/ (https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/2012-kawasaki-zx-14r-zzr1400/)
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One article said it was aimed at luxury touring. This is just a friendlier H2. Probably a great bike but not luxury touring.
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Just a comment or two on the chain drive: yeah, I like shaft drives too, for all the same reasons as everyone else. That said, if I really wanted a particular bike for long distance use, and it happened to be chain drive, that would not be a deal- killer for me.
Chain drive gets a bad rap, I believe, because it is not done 'correctly' in the first place. We sling oil all over it, than ride it a thousand and often many more miles, then slather oil on it again. The pistons and rods in the engine would last about two days if lubed like that. :-( The far better way to go would be with an automatic oiler; they greatly extend the life of the chain, which also reduces the rate of chain stretch and so minimizes general chain maintenance, but at the same time the bike will actually stay cleaner than trying to flood the chain once every now and then. A small amount of oil, constantly applied, works wonders and with reasonable chain gaurds does not even make that much of a mess, at least IMO and for my use.
Some years ago a long- distance rider (goes by the handle 'Warchild', good guy but.... INTENSE :-) ) decided he wanted a Hayabusa for long distance use. Much like you just said, he wanted a lighter, leaner bike than any sport tourer or tourer offered so he went the other way and started with a stripped down sport bike and dressed it to his liking. Of course he piled tremendous miles on the chassis but he also installed an automatic oiler from the get- go, and as I remember, he was getting 30K+ miles out of a chain / sprocket set. Certainly more maintenance than a shaft drive bike but not so bad as to be overly annoying IMO (and apparently, in his opinion also). The basic point being once an oiler is in place, there really is not any trip that anyone really goes on, including some extreme rides such as across the country and back, that would require chain maintenance along the way.
Just wanted to throw that out there as food for thought.
Brian
Well here it is: https://www.cycleworld.com/2018-kawasaki-h2-sx-sport-tourer-debut (https://www.cycleworld.com/2018-kawasaki-h2-sx-sport-tourer-debut)
Chain drive, which is disappointing of course but pretty much as expected. For those that use their bike as a
daily commuter and an occasional touring bike I guess it's not that viable. I was thinking it's still in the running
as a replacement bike for my C14 when mine runs out of warranty in 2021 but maybe not. They didn't mention
anything about increased electrical power for accessories which is definitly one of he C14's strong points. For me
it's still in the running (although the new Honda 'wing looks good too) because of they way I ride. I'm either on a trip or it sits.
I might go on 3 day rides a year.
I usually have to add new tires and change oil etc before any trip, so adding a little chain maintenance before leaving
is not that big of a deal, especially since I'd be going on a trip with more power, about the same torque, better fuel mileage
(reportedly) and almost 200 lbs less weight. Time will tell. I'm getting on in years, so I may even quit riding by then? :-\ :-[ :(
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Chain drive,
chain drive instantly removes any eligibility for the word "tour" in it
It doesn't even have an adjustable windscreen AND it is short to add even more insult. And short wheelbase. AND no analog speedometer. AND small fairings. AND not keyless (kipass). I don't even think they moved the pegs.
It is a sport bike with luggage, NOT a sports tourer by any definition I would recognize.
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Yes. That term has apparently migrated over from autos where it is sometimes called 'drive by wire'. Basically it means no mechanical connection between the humans' throttle control (pedal or twist grip) and the thing(s) that moves on the engine to control the throttle.
Not sure what you are referring to regarding a reflash and throttle settings but basically, the humans' throttle is an encoder, and the engines' throttle is a servo or stepper motor responding to the encoders' input. They should never need any computer adjustment ever, and if any part fails, it would not be a case of adjusting but just part replacement.
As far as 'wrong a lot' I betcha' I could give you a run for the money. Stop by my place and I can show you 'wrong a lot' all over the place (funny and sad, all at once).
Brian
Is "ride by wire" the same as "throttle by wire"? I'm not sure, but it is what made me think it is throttle by wire and would need a reflash to change
throttle settings which was why I was under the impression it met euro 4 standards... but unlike others here, I'm wrong a lot. :(
I guess a shop manual could tell us, but I'm not buying one. I'm sort of losing interest at this point.
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/2012-kawasaki-zx-14r-zzr1400/ (https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/2012-kawasaki-zx-14r-zzr1400/)
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chain drive instantly removes any eligibility for the word "tour" in it
You sure post that incorrect statement a lot, as though you're the authority. You do realize shaft drives are not maintenance-free?
Here are 2 of us out sport touring on chain driven motorcycles with absolutely no problems:
(http://www.zx14ninjaforum.com/userfiles/extrapolator/Trip%202017a.jpg)
(http://www.zx14ninjaforum.com/userfiles/extrapolator/1720257a.jpg)
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You sure post that incorrect statement a lot, as though you're the authority.
I *am* the authority of my own opinion and views. Quote:
NOT a sports tourer by any definition I would recognize.
You sure like to quote without full context a lot.... blah, blah, blah.
You do realize shaft drives are not maintenance-free?
Never said was.
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Yes. That term has apparently migrated over from autos where it is sometimes called 'drive by wire'. Basically it means no mechanical connection between the humans' throttle control (pedal or twist grip) and the thing(s) that moves on the engine to control the throttle.
The C14 already has one major part of "throttle by wire" because the computer can override (limit) throttle input with the secondary butterflies. This gives the computer the ability to shape input for drivability, emissions, and traction control. (And it is used on the C14 to neuter power/responsiveness greatly to comply with emissions, mileage efficiency, and perhaps noise requirements... hence the need for a reflash or tricking the inputs if one wants to "fix" those issues).
The advantage of the total "by wire" is that it is a less complex system- no need for throttle cables and two sets of butterflies. That should mean fewer components to fail with some additional reliability, less cost, and a tiny bit of weight savings.
I am not sure of any disadvantages of moving from what we have now to full throttle-by-wire except that shaping the input can't be done mechanically at all (like the throttle tubes to address "snatchiness"), so one would be totally dependent on someone hopefully/eventually breaking into the ECU and having the ability to reprogram it.
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I've never owned a chain drive bike so I don't know what's involved in it but other than changing the rear drive fluid at every oil change (above and beyond what's specified) and the lubing the splines at every tire change (above and beyond) there really isn't much to do to the shaft drive C14. I did change the cush drive rubbers but only because I wanted to. I'm not sure it needed that.
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I've never owned a chain drive bike so I don't know what's involved in it
I have a few, and they are a pain. Have to clean them and lube them several times a year. Have to adjust the tension every year or so to compensate for "stretch" (elongation). Have to clean the "flung" lube off everything regularly. Have to clean the sprockets regularly. Have to replace the chain every few years when it stretches beyond service. Have to replace one or both sprockets every several years due to wear. Shaft drive is a LOT less work and far less messy. I love it. Just have to change the oil in it every few years, takes much less time than a single chain/sprocket clean/lube.
Disclaimer: The above are my OPINIONS and OBSERVATIONS based on my personal experience with both over the last 20 years. Other people's experiences will probably vary.
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Have to clean them and lube them several times a year.
Every other week for me. I commute on my Multistrada.
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Every other week for me. I commute on my Multistrada.
Chains can get fouled surprisingly quickly when run in the wet or around dirt/dust. Seems no matter what type of chain or lube or how often I tried to keep it clean and lubricated, they would still get fouled quickly and often rust. There are very good reasons that most bikes that claim to fit a sport touring category have shaft drive instead of chain drive.
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Nobody has mentioned the ubiquitous belt as a reliable and low maintenance drive system.
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I got one of those!
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Nobody has mentioned the ubiquitous belt as a reliable and low maintenance drive system.
They are only "ubiquitous" on cruisers.
There are reasons you don't see belts used on almost any sports or sports-touring bike. Although they last a long time (on suitable bikes, AKA cruisers) and are much cleaner, they waste a lot more power and can't handle as much engine power (which is a problem on performance bikes). And perhaps most importantly, toothed belts cannot tolerate anywhere near as much suspension travel because they can't handle being "slack." So without a tensioner, they tend to only be suitable on bikes with little suspension travel (which means a suspension far less able to soak up road disturbances, keep the tire planted when needed, and low compression time hurts corning). With a tensioner, it eats up even more power. Belts are also wider and require much larger wheel pulleys because they can't wrap as small as a chain.
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A great system but they do not handle very high power throughput. Otherwise they are outstanding and used all the time on machinery, both moving and stationary, up to 50 Hp ratings, with great success. Of course they can handle much greater power but unfortunately there is a direct relationship between power transmitted and the width of the belt / sprockets.
There are several systems out there, some proprietary, all good really but again, they just will not transfer large amounts of power without being obnoxiously wide. And that right there is the entire problem, the width of the belt itself. Otherwise, they are very efficient, require no lube, are self- cleaning, quiet and they do not stretch. It is quite common to design modern machinery using cogged belts with no provision for belt stretch outside of initial setup.
Brian
Nobody has mentioned the ubiquitous belt as a reliable and low maintenance drive system.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKMT7bZXzj8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKMT7bZXzj8)
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non-heated grips.
Video shows it does have heated grips.
So, what is the "SE" variant? The video doesn't explain.
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More info on the Mother Kawasaki UK site
https://www.kawasaki.co.uk/en/products/Sport_Tourer/2018/Ninja_H2_SX/overview?Uid=08D7WwxbXwpRWlpeDgxeXFELWgpRCgxQDV4KXV1fUVxdCgw (https://www.kawasaki.co.uk/en/products/Sport_Tourer/2018/Ninja_H2_SX/overview?Uid=08D7WwxbXwpRWlpeDgxeXFELWgpRCgxQDV4KXV1fUVxdCgw)
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I still haven't seen a price for this thing.
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Doesn't matter, I don't like it.
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I still haven't seen a price for this thing.
If you have to ask, you can't afford it...
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More info on the Mother Kawasaki UK site
https://www.kawasaki.co.uk/en/products/Sport_Tourer/2018/Ninja_H2_SX/overview?Uid=08D7WwxbXwpRWlpeDgxeXFELWgpRCgxQDV4KXV1fUVxdCgw (https://www.kawasaki.co.uk/en/products/Sport_Tourer/2018/Ninja_H2_SX/overview?Uid=08D7WwxbXwpRWlpeDgxeXFELWgpRCgxQDV4KXV1fUVxdCgw)
Thanks
OMG, I hate the site layout. Smooth scrolling, forced media, lack of detailed info without scrolling through tons of guided "stuff". Yuck. Typical for "modern" sites, though.
Anyway, they answered what "SE" means- the addition of cornering lights, launch control, color better dashboard computer, and clutchless shifting at some unknown additional price. It is quite an interesting bike in many ways, even though I still don't consider it a sports tourer :)
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chain drive instantly removes any eligibility for the word "tour" in it
It doesn't even have an adjustable windscreen AND it is short to add even more insult. And short wheelbase. AND no analog speedometer. AND small fairings. AND not keyless (kipass). I don't even think they moved the pegs.
It is a sport bike with luggage, NOT a sports tourer by any definition I would recognize.
Funny there's a guy on YouTube who says any bike that has a shaft drive cannot have sport in the name. That is to say a Concours 14 cannot be a sport tourer, an FJR cannot be a sport tourer because it has shaft drive. He says they're 'tourers'
Its funny to see each person's opinion.
To be clear, it is extended an inch over the H2 so it is a bit longer, it does have an analogue tachometer on the base model and the SE, the fairings or wider than H2 for better wind protection, windsield is longer and aftermarkets will make longer still. Cruise, heated grips, built for better range. This is a sport bike with sport touring cues. MANY would call that a sport tourer. Hell, man, some call a ZX6R with Corbin soft bags a sport tourer.
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Funny there's a guy on YouTube who says any bike that has a shaft drive cannot have sport in the name. That is to say a Concours 14 cannot be a sport tourer, an FJR cannot be a sport tourer because it has shaft drive. He says they're 'tourers'
Its funny to see each person's opinion.
Indeed. They are just completely ignoring the "sport touring" class completely and saying there is sport or touring.
To be clear, it is extended an inch over the H2 so it is a bit longer
And yet still a whopping almost 2 inches shorter than the Concours and almost 3 inches shorter than the FJR.
it does have an analogue tachometer on the base model and the SE, the fairings or wider than H2 for better wind protection, windsield is longer and aftermarkets will make longer still.
All compared to the H2/H2R, which is great for general riding, but still far less fairing than the Concours and the windshield is non-adjustable (which I think is a HUGE negative) and positively tiny compared to even the stock Concours. The extreme angle of the SX stock shield will likely make larger aftermarkets probably look strange.
built for better range.
Again, better range than the H2/H2R for sure, but a small 5 gal tank with an expected range of only 190 miles (not confirmed) is not impressive for anything that has the word "tour" in it.... remember, people complain about the Concours' range of "only" 250 miles. :) The Ninja 1000 has a range of around 195 miles.
It will certainly be fast with 45hp more than the Concours and significantly less weight (for some reason the weight is still a secret too, but some sources peg it at 100 pounds less, which would be around 15% less). I really like the [optional] cornering lights.
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My post was just to reinforce that it's not just an H2 with bags, is all. They actually did some stuff. Whether that stuff deserves a 'sport touring' sticker or not is up to each individual. :) In my mind it does. I see that bike and deem that they did 'enough' to earn that moniker, but that's just me.
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My post was just to reinforce that it's not just an H2 with bags, is all. They actually did some stuff.
And I absolutely agree with you. It really is different enough to be a different bike. Probably marketing, but it seems like it would have been a better idea to give it a different "name" than just slapping SX on it (and then slapping SE on the end when you add a few more features, yet). But, I will never understand marketing.