Author Topic: Dragging caliper assistance  (Read 13469 times)

Offline Tactical_Mik

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Dragging caliper assistance
« on: May 31, 2011, 04:08:34 PM »
Ok, my left caliper is dragging.  I had an issue with one of the brake retaining pins on the left caliper.  I rebuilt it replacing all the seals and one piston.  Bled it and the left caliper still drags.  I dissasembled to make sure everything was still good, reassembled and it was still dragging.  I decided to take it apart again, clean and hone the rotors and while it was apart, decided to try replacing the caliper in case there was damage I could not see from the retaining pin incident. 

I put the new caliper with new pads all the way around and again bled the system.  No joy.   :'( I am at a loss and can not think of anything else that would cause the left caliper to drag.  My right caliper functions as it should.  I was hoping to replace my wheel bearings and ride down to Mountain Home/Mountain View this weekend but it doesn't look like that will happen.  I would be happy with just having my issue fixed.

Any ideas?  Is there a brake dance I need to perform like any of the numberous KIPASS jigs?  :)
T.S.R.

Offline Jeremy Mitchell

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2011, 04:15:25 PM »
Since two separate calipers have performed the same way I would check the crossover hose that goes from the right caliper to the left.  Could it be possible that there is something wrong with the hose to where it won't release the pressure even though you bled the system?  I could be way off but it might give you something else to troubleshoot.
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Offline Tactical_Mik

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2011, 04:23:25 PM »
I did a visual inspection (not that it would yield any results) and I don't see any damage.  I suppose there could be something wrong internally with the hose.
T.S.R.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2011, 07:07:24 PM »
If you start the KiPass incantation from the second paragraph anything could happen to the bike, including sticky calipers.

Did you change just the caliper and pads or did you change everything in the calipers too (pistons, seals)? If you used the old pistons, I would inspect them very carefully to make sure there is absolutely no ridge on the surface that could be hanging up on a seal or dust seal. If you can push the pistons back into the caliper with bare hands then the pistons should be OK.

Next, did you change the worn pad pins? If not, you may be providing an area for the pad to hang up on by mistake.

Finally, if it is not mechanical and the brakes are still dragging, it must be hydraulic pressure. Make absolutely sure the master cylinder piston is returning all the way to the home or retracted position. Make sure all passages in the master cylinder are clear; one tiny piece of seal or any type of debris can clog a cylinder port and allow pressure to be retained in the slave side of the system.

It also could be something really odd like a twisted caliper mounting tab on the front fork; this could allow the caliper to sit at an angle to the rotor and <perhaps> cause some odd kind of force between the pads and the caliper. Check too to see if the pads slide easily inside the caliper.

Frankly I am perplexed as to what is causing your brake problems and suspect some underlying, and undiagnosed, cause. Wearing the pad pins is odd in the first place but to have a new caliper (and I assume pistons and seals) and pads bind is really suspect. Modern brakes are usually fantastically reliable so you having two different problems after changing calipers makes me think the root cause is still there. You could try reverse flushing the system to see if there is a piece of debris somewhere in a line or something, or take the lines completely off and flush them individually.

Brian

Ok, my left caliper is dragging.  I had an issue with one of the brake retaining pins on the left caliper.  I rebuilt it replacing all the seals and one piston.  Bled it and the left caliper still drags.  I dissasembled to make sure everything was still good, reassembled and it was still dragging.  I decided to take it apart again, clean and hone the rotors and while it was apart, decided to try replacing the caliper in case there was damage I could not see from the retaining pin incident. 

I put the new caliper with new pads all the way around and again bled the system.  No joy.   :'( I am at a loss and can not think of anything else that would cause the left caliper to drag.  My right caliper functions as it should.  I was hoping to replace my wheel bearings and ride down to Mountain Home/Mountain View this weekend but it doesn't look like that will happen.  I would be happy with just having my issue fixed.

Any ideas?  Is there a brake dance I need to perform like any of the numberous KIPASS jigs?  :)
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Offline Tactical_Mik

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 02:30:54 AM »
I put the new brake pads in with the new caliper.  It came complete and pre-assembled with seals and pistons.  The original caliper is apart again in my garage.  I didn't give much thought to the master cylinder because my brain was telling me that both front brakes would drag should there be a blockage there.  I guess, I will dissasemble the front lines etc. this weekend.  If I can't figure it out I guess a trip to the shop will be in order.   :'(  I suppose that is what warranty is for but I won't like it if the brakes are able to beat me.  :)

T.S.R.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2011, 06:00:02 AM »
What year bike?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2011, 06:17:28 AM »
OK, with a new caliper assembly, complete with all moving parts, and only one caliper dragging, I can only think of two things. The very unlikely one is that there is something seriously wrong with the caliper mount itself and the caliper is significantly misaligned or very crooked on the disc. Are you the guy who had a pad drop out of the caliper and the piston wear against the rotor? If so, that might have misaligned the caliper by twisting the mount on the fork.

The only other thing is some type of fluid blockage between the calipers. Something in the line or more likely, at the end of a line that is holding residual pressure. Even this is not common at all but we are running out of possibilities. I would suggest taking the cross- over hose off both calipers, inspecting it carefully for some debris and then flushing it thoroughly. Then check the ports area of both calipers to make sure they are clear. Hopefully you will find something.

If both calipers are dragging slightly then I would suspect the master cylinder, and that would be more likely to have a problem than a hose IMO. Of course with a small amount of pressure left in the lines one caliper could drag worse than the other and make it seem as though only one were dragging.

Brian



I put the new brake pads in with the new caliper.  It came complete and pre-assembled with seals and pistons.  The original caliper is apart again in my garage.  I didn't give much thought to the master cylinder because my brain was telling me that both front brakes would drag should there be a blockage there.  I guess, I will dissasemble the front lines etc. this weekend.  If I can't figure it out I guess a trip to the shop will be in order.   :'(  I suppose that is what warranty is for but I won't like it if the brakes are able to beat me.  :)
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Offline muguvian

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2011, 06:40:34 AM »
I don't have an answer yet, but I have the same uneven wear problem on my '08.  My RH caliper pads wear at least 2x faster than the LH pads and all the components appear to be fine (rotors are true, mounts are straight, pistons/seals are good, m/c is clear,etc).  Braking performance is very good but I have gone through 3 sets of pads in the last 10-12k mi, but only on the RH side (I rotate the LH pads over to the RH caliper and put the new pads in the LH caliper).  Like you, I now believe I have eliminated all possibilities except for the lines themselves.  Honestly I just need to get off my butt and order some custom Superbike or Superlight lines from Galfer.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2011, 06:51:55 AM »
OK, with a new caliper assembly, complete with all moving parts, and only one caliper dragging, I can only think of two things. The very unlikely one is that there is something seriously wrong with the caliper mount itself and the caliper is significantly misaligned or very crooked on the disc. Are you the guy who had a pad drop out of the caliper and the piston wear against the rotor? If so, that might have misaligned the caliper by twisting the mount on the fork.


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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2011, 06:58:45 AM »
I'm asking about the year as the piping changed for the '10 models vs the previous years.  There is no crossover pipe on the '10s on up.  Looks like there is a junction box that feeds both calipers with separate lines.  There isn't too much fluid in the master cylinder?  Although, one would think that it would cause issues with both calipers.
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Offline philipintexas

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2011, 09:52:25 AM »
Can you Define "dragging"? the pads should lightly touch the disk and would make a light scraping sound when the wheel is rotated. Do yours drag enough to prevent the wheel from turning? And do the disks get hot from the dragging?
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Offline Tactical_Mik

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2011, 02:40:05 PM »
The bike is an 09.  I define dragging for the topic at hand as.....I can drive a mile with out ever touching the front brakes, coast to a stop with light rear brake only, putting the side stand down and if you put fingers to both front rotors, your right hand (grabbing the left rotor) will get burned if you hold it there for more than a second.  The left rotor will be blueish in color.  Hope that is descriptive enough.

I have enough fluid in the master to be halfway between the full line and minimum line.

I am the one that the shop, or me I suppose, stripped the brake pad retaining pin which allowed one of the pads to fall out destroying the piston.  When I replaced the seals and piston in that caliper, I found no evidence of the piston bore being scored.

Hope that answered all the questions.  It's annoying that I have not been able to figure it out yet.  In what will probably be a vain attempt, I bled the front system again today when I got off work.  I haven't done anything else and can not disassemble it until my weekend as this is my transportation.  Just for your grins, now when I touch the front brake lever at any speed above 40ish, the front end shakes quite bad.  That would be BAD. 
T.S.R.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2011, 02:51:03 PM »
Well, that sounds like dragging brakes to me. Disc brakes do not have return springs but should run with a minimal clearance and should not get hot if they are not used.

You mention the right rotor being hot and the left rotor being bluish- is the blue coloring happening on each ride or is it just the result of some past incident.  Is the right rotor hot or warm to the touch when the left one is hot?

Can you rotate the front wheel freely when the bike is on the center stand? It should go at least one revolution or so after being spun by hand only.

You could try to isolate the cause to either a mechanical or hydraulic root by cracking open the hydraulic system and then unbolting each caliper being careful not to disturb or bump the caliper while doing it. Then see if the caliper slides freely off the rotor: if it does, then I would suspect a hydraulic problem, if not then the problem is probably mechanical and caused directly by the sticky caliper.

Brian


The bike is an 09.  I define dragging for the topic at hand as.....I can drive a mile with out ever touching the front brakes, coast to a stop with light rear brake only, putting the side stand down and if you put fingers to both front rotors, your right hand (grabbing the left rotor) will get burned if you hold it there for more than a second.  The left rotor will be blueish in color.  Hope that is descriptive enough.

I have enough fluid in the master to be halfway between the full line and minimum line.

I am the one that the shop, or me I suppose, stripped the brake pad retaining pin which allowed one of the pads to fall out destroying the piston.  When I replaced the seals and piston in that caliper, I found no evidence of the piston bore being scored.

Hope that answered all the questions.  It's annoying that I have not been able to figure it out yet.  In what will probably be a vain attempt, I bled the front system again today when I got off work.  I haven't done anything else and can not disassemble it until my weekend as this is my transportation.  Just for your grins, now when I touch the front brake lever at any speed above 40ish, the front end shakes quite bad.  That would be BAD.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 02:55:09 PM »
Other than a twisted mount all you got left is the rotor.  Have you switched that over to the other side and see if the problem follows?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 02:59:24 PM »
It would not hurt anything to swap rotors but a rotor cannot cause dragging disc brakes. The rotor(s) are the passive part of disc brakes and can only impact the operation of the active parts (the calipers including the pads, which squeeze the rotor) rather than cause anything directly to happen. Even a badly warped rotor can only shake the caliper when pressure is applied to the rotor- when freewheeling down the road the rotor cannot impart any forces or actions to the caliper.

Brian


Other than a twisted mount all you got left is the rotor.  Have you switched that over to the other side and see if the problem follows?
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2011, 03:05:53 PM »
Ok, other than that I got nothin....

There was no problem before the 'incident'.  This happened afterward.  Could the 'incident' have twisted the fork on that side? 
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Offline Tactical_Mik

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2011, 03:09:01 PM »
Sorry for the confusion, your right fingers, squatting in front of the bike will get burned should you hold the left caliper for more than a second or so.  The right rotor would be cool to the touch.  Only the left rotor would be blueish.

I have held the front end up, spinning the tire.  While it will spin for a revolution, sometimes two, I can clearly see the deceleration of the tire and am able to discern the pad noise coming from the left caliper. 

I will try releasing the bleed valve momentarily and see if any fluid is pushed out and if the caliper pressure is decreased.
T.S.R.

Offline Tactical_Mik

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2011, 03:13:07 PM »
Ok, other than that I got nothin....

There was no problem before the 'incident'.  This happened afterward.  Could the 'incident' have twisted the fork on that side? 

I had no issues other than the warped or dirty rotors beforehand.  I assumed the shake was caused by pad build up as I cleaned and honed them and the vibes were gone for a couple of miles.  If they weren't warped before, I am pretty sure my left one is now.   I don't see the rotor taking the constant abuse and surviving but I won't know until after I figure out the dragging issue.
T.S.R.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2011, 03:13:27 PM »
Well, I knew it would come to this.....bleeding.  Good for what ails you.  Leeches will help.  Seriously though, it would be interesting to see if we have an arterial bleed when the bleeder is cracked.
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Offline Tactical_Mik

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Re: Dragging caliper assistance
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2011, 03:45:36 PM »
Well, took a spin and when I got back and opened the bleed valve, I did have fluid coming out.  For the first split second it came out with just enough force to clear the top of the bleed valve by about 1/4 ish inch then slowed to a dribble.  I closed the valve, lifted the front wheel and gave it a spin, didn't notice any difference in resistance.  With out touching the brake lever I opened the valve again and allowed somehwere around a 1/4 teaspoon of fluid to escape then closed the valve again.  When I spun the front wheel it seemed like less resistance.  I know that is a pretty subjective test but those are the results I found for what it's worth.
T.S.R.