Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: AaronJM on August 24, 2011, 01:25:07 PM
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I thinks it's time for a new battery. There was quite a bit of information posted on the "old forum" about the different options available but I can't seem to find much info now. I thought I would buy from Murph when the time came but it appears he doesn't carry them anymore. I saved a link some time ago from Tri-State battery. http://www.tristatebattery.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=19&products_id=732 (http://www.tristatebattery.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=19&products_id=732) Anyone have experience with this unit or other suggestions?
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http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/shorai (http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/shorai)
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That is too bad- I have one of Murph's AGM batteries and am very happy with it.
You might be able to get the same brand elsewhere if Murph is no longer stocking the size for the C-14- I believe the brand is MotoBatt.
Brian
I thinks it's time for a new battery. There was quite a bit of information posted on the "old forum" about the different options available but I can't seem to find much info now. I thought I would buy from Murph when the time came but it appears he doesn't carry them anymore. I saved a link some time ago from Tri-State battery. http://www.tristatebattery.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=19&products_id=732 (http://www.tristatebattery.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=19&products_id=732) Anyone have experience with this unit or other suggestions?
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I also believe there are some new smaller/lighter/more powerful types available now, lithium-ion IIRC. Pricey, as most new technology usually is, but they appear to have operational benefits, i.e., lighter, power, services life....
I'm just sayin.....
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Just my opinion but that is new technology for this use and might be finicky. One person who did try one mentioned having to turn the headlights on for a bit before engaging the starter to warm up the battery, and the ambient temp. wasn't really low. Lead acid is very well proven and known technology; lithium batteries may be the new thing that comes along and surpasses them but I would like to see some go through a northern US winter before jumping on that wagon. Again, I am not knocking this chemistry in any way, just taking a 'wait and see' attitude, especially since there is no pressing reason to leave lead- acid technology behind.
Brian
I also believe there are some new smaller/lighter/more powerful types available now, lithium-ion IIRC. Pricey, as most new technology usually is, but they appear to have operational benefits, i.e., lighter, power, services life....
I'm just sayin.....
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Just my opinion but that is new technology for this use and might be finicky. One person who did try one mentioned having to turn the headlights on for a bit before engaging the starter to warm up the battery, and the ambient temp. wasn't really low. Lead acid is very well proven and known technology; lithium batteries may be the new thing that comes along and surpasses them but I would like to see some go through a northern US winter before jumping on that wagon. Again, I am not knocking this chemistry in any way, just taking a 'wait and see' attitude, especially since there is no pressing reason to leave lead- acid technology behind.
Brian
Seriously laughing out loud. Brian, the formost defender of bleeding-edge technology, shies away from LiOn/LiPo batteries. This is good. Is this a portent of a return to carbs, kick starters, drum brakes, and ahem "conventional" ignition locking mechanisms?
From my experience w/ RC car/heli batteries, I would have no qualms going with a LiPo motorcycle battery, other than the cost. If course, where I live, cold and snow are virtually non-existant.
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super-walmart, take yours in, match sizes, take the core charge off the table, walk out.
for anything else I strongly recommend TARGET!!! Not for the big red balls, but to avoid all those peopleofwalmart.com type folks that frequent the place.
TARGET FTW!
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/LR/redball.jpg)
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Now Clyde, go easy on trying to paint me in any extreme corner or you might get a reputation of being an overexcited zealot instead of the thoughtful, rational person we all know that you are. And you wouldn't want that reputation..... right? :D I like to believe my responses are rational and have at least a little thought behind them.
The battery in my bike must start it reliably down to well below 20F; and I have little confidence that a lithium battery will do that (note that I did not say that it would not, just that I do not have confidence in it happening). I have every confidence in the lead acid battery (specifically AGM) in the bike doing that very thing. Lead acid batteries are very robust with regard to charging / discharging rates and especially, charging / discharging limits. Drain a lead acid cell far down its nominal voltage and it will tolerate that- its lifespan may be shortened but they will take a charge and start the vehicle many more times before failing from such abuse. Over discharge a lithium cell and it is toast; the chemistry is destroyed. Same thing with the rate of charging, lead acid types take high charge rates well (again, it may damage the cell but not destroy its ability to take and hold a charge, as well as start a vehicle many times) while lithium batteries must contain circuitry to limit their charge rate to a reasonable rate.
I also have some experience in R/C use (fixed wing though and only for receiver and servo power) but more in cordless tools, and that experience has not been good. I have been through a handful of extremely expensive lithium batteries in a Makita cordless drill, often having them fail two at a time after long periods of inactivity. NiCad and especially nickel metal hydride batteries are far tougher in actual use even though their power density is less. Still, I would take a battery with 1/2 of the potential power storage that WORKED over a 'dead as a doornail' higher capacity battery anytime.
Lithium batteries seem to be performing well in cell phone applications although that took a number of years to reach the current (pun intended) of reliability and stability.
In the end, I just don't equate the high price and uncertainty (my uncertainty at least) of lithium battery performance, especially under extreme conditions, as a decent valve for vehicle starting use. As I already said, I do not think they are necessarily bad but I want to sit back and let them perform wonderfully before I jump on board. Besides, what is the big advantage? A few pounds of weight savings and smaller size? The size means nothing to me because the battery box on the bike is fixed in size, and if I really wanted to save a bit of weight on my C-14 I could force the rider to lose more than both batteries put together.
Brian
Seriously laughing out loud. Brian, the formost defender of bleeding-edge technology, shies away from LiOn/LiPo batteries. This is good. Is this a portent of a return to carbs, kick starters, drum brakes, and ahem "conventional" ignition locking mechanisms?
From my experience w/ RC car/heli batteries, I would have no qualms going with a LiPo motorcycle battery, other than the cost. If course, where I live, cold and snow are virtually non-existant.
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Stll smiling. Just find it amusing to find you on the other side of the "not ready for prime time" argument.
At this point, the motorcycle LiPo's are terribly expensive ($1k range), at least the ones I found, and only even slightly make sense for racing or show bikes. Hopefully enough will sell, and battery tech will keep developing so that they will be affordable and reliable within another 2-5 years.
Cold weather, overcharging and over-discharging all have to be addressed. As you noted, cold weather is a bit of a challenge. In the meantime, we can hope for the return of kick-starters. :) On a couple of the other bike forums I visit, there are those who seriously lament the loss of kickstarters. And carbs. Nobody seems to wax nostalgic about drum brakes, though.
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I too have extensive experience with Lithium batteries for R/C Use (Fixed wing as well as Heli) and the new LIPO batteries can deliver AMAZING power and deep draw rates and be extremely light, the technology has come a LONG way...
My issue with Lithium is that they cannot hook directly into the bike without some form of electronic circuitry to control the charge rates, if a lithium battery is charged incorrectly it can explode and it burns pretty hot. That is probably what is driving the cost of these batteries so high, the cost of the circuitry.
However, I don't see the point of using them as opposed to a reasonably priced AGM battery, The only advantage that I can see would be for weight savings, and to be honest, unless you are Valentino Rossi you will not be flogging the bike hard enough where the 10 lbs or so difference will make a difference in the bike's power or acceleration...
It's a neat concept, but I just don't see any real reason for it... There are so many other Farkles I could be spending that money on :)
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+1
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Not sure if we are talking about the same chemistry but Shorai batteries for a C-14 are approx. $150 or $190 depending on whether you get the super, super, super, outstanding one or the better one. I bet you are tearing a strip out of your carpet right now running to the phone to order one. http://www.shoraipower.com/s-82430-1400-GTR.aspx (http://www.shoraipower.com/s-82430-1400-GTR.aspx) I think they have free shipping too because the batteries are so light they just throw them out a window and they float to your house on gentle air currents.
Go get em', tiger! ;D
Brian
Stll smiling. Just find it amusing to find you on the other side of the "not ready for prime time" argument.
At this point, the motorcycle LiPo's are terribly expensive ($1k range), at least the ones I found, and only even slightly make sense for racing or show bikes. Hopefully enough will sell, and battery tech will keep developing so that they will be affordable and reliable within another 2-5 years.
Cold weather, overcharging and over-discharging all have to be addressed. As you noted, cold weather is a bit of a challenge. In the meantime, we can hope for the return of kick-starters. :) On a couple of the other bike forums I visit, there are those who seriously lament the loss of kickstarters. And carbs. Nobody seems to wax nostalgic about drum brakes, though.
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According to that link to Shorai the basic (non extended) Battery is 150 bucks, Did a quickie search and found a AGM battery for a C-14 for 55 bucks. So you are paying 90 bucks extra to save approx 7 lbs.
Doesn't make sense to me....
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I will stick with the good ole proven technology for now.
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Cool. Thx for the link. A lot better price than the $900 batteries I found. The carpet will be okay (just toss a throw rug over the burned-out strip). I'm probably about a year out from needing a battery, but will keep the Shorai in mind for then. Thanks again.
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I have to go with Brian and Pokey on this one. I went with the "proven technology." I've never been accused of being a Luddite and am generally willing to try new technology but I think cost trumps all. I had thought I would buy from Murph when the time came but he probably realized what a pain in the arse dealing in batteries is. I found the same MotoBatt on Amazon for $73. I think that's just about what Murph sold them for. I couldn't find any bad reviews of the battery so I'll give it shot. I like the fact that the MotoBatt has 4 terminals to separate the accessory, tender leads etc. from the main. This time I'm going to use my Battery Tender a little more religiously. I was pretty inconsistant on my OEM battery but still managed to get 40+ months out of it. That's with one complete drain and recharge from leaving the switch in the "on" position. :P
Thanks for the input.
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I replaced mine with a Shorai. VERY pleased! Great power and MUCH lighter!
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Heree are the 2 batteries side by side
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Thank you for posting that picture.
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for anything else I strongly recommend TARGET!!! Not for the big red balls, but to avoid all those peopleofwalmart.com type folks that frequent the place.
Hey boy - you got sumptin' against Walmart shoppers? BTW, AGM batteries used to be very expensive when they first came on the market -- give the Li-Fe batteries time for the prices to come down before you buy....
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I agree with you about the prices, and even now the price is not all that awful for the new technology. But the big difference between something like AGM and these Shorai batteries is the even when brand new, AGM was known chemistry (lead- acid) while the Shorai type is new to vehicle starting use as far as I know.
I find it amusing that Shorai lists a far longer battery life as an advantage to their technology and then gives a 2 year warranty, the same as a MotoBatt AGM battery. I would be a lot more impressed if Shorai gave a 5 year or even better, 7 year warranty even if it was pro- rated.
As I said before, I am not opposed to these new batteries, I just want to see them prove their suitability to the task before jumping on the bandwagon.
Brian
<snip>
BTW, AGM batteries used to be very expensive when they first came on the market -- give the Li-Fe batteries time for the prices to come down before you buy....
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I'm lost on this battery for our bikes, what purpose do they serve? On a 200-300 pound track bike a few pounds may be worth a few hundred bux extra, sure. And thats if the bike was being used on a track or drag strip.
Shaving our bike a few pounds is like taking the spare tire off a dump truck. Sure its lighter, but would the laws of physics say much has been accomplished?
Obviously its my bad, I'm missing the whole point of this debate (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/thinker.gif)
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Don't feel bad...
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I'm lost on this battery for our bikes, what purpose do they serve? On a 200-300 pound track bike a few pounds may be worth a few hundred bux extra, sure. And thats if the bike was being used on a track or drag strip.
Shaving our bike a few pounds is like taking the spare tire off a dump truck. Sure its lighter, but would the laws of physics say much has been accomplished?
Obviously its my bad, I'm missing the whole point of this debate (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/thinker.gif)
+1
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Between the 30 I lost this year, the 15+ I saved when I upgraded the exhaust, another 7 would help, wont urt. When the stocker craps out I will do the upgrade. I may even opt for some CF levers ;)
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Yeah but you have to subtract the weight of the jumber cables you may need from the seven pounds of weight saved.... ;D
Brian
Between the 30 I lost this year, the 15+ I saved when I upgraded the exhaust, another 7 would help, wont urt. When the stocker craps out I will do the upgrade. I may even opt for some CF levers ;)
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Yeah but you have to subtract the weight of the jumber cables you may need from the seven pounds of weight saved.... ;D
Brian
I trust in KiPASS enough that I wouldnt need em and since she gets ridden at least 6 days out of the week and it rarely gets below 20 in the winter I should be OK. Lifes a gamble and I live in the grandest casino in our solar system 8)
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I replaced my batt for about 38 bucks plus shipping, thanks to a post on the crashed forum. As far as I can tell it works exactly like the OEM batt which worked pretty good.
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I'm lost on this battery for our bikes, what purpose do they serve? On a 200-300 pound track bike a few pounds may be worth a few hundred bux extra, sure. And thats if the bike was being used on a track or drag strip.
Shaving our bike a few pounds is like taking the spare tire off a dump truck. Sure its lighter, but would the laws of physics say much has been accomplished?
Obviously its my bad, I'm missing the whole point of this debate (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/thinker.gif)
+2...
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Between the 30 I lost this year, the 15+ I saved when I upgraded the exhaust, another 7 would help, wont urt. When the stocker craps out I will do the upgrade. I may even opt for some CF levers ;)
Nice job on the weight loss Chet! (yours, not the bike)
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Nice job on the weight loss Chet! (yours, not the bike)
Hey! Thanks much!!! I am awaiting an appointment with a surgeon for my back, L4/5. I have 2 herniated discs and degenerative bone loss, it really hinders my mobility and has slowed down my weight loss program. I really dont like drugs and i only use em when it is beyond my pain tolerance level. I feel better when I'm on a bike. As soon as I get my back fixed I plan on about another 30 or so pounds. I rode the KLR in this morning, and guess what? The bat was all but dead, had to bump start her, on this bike I will be doing the cheap route, weight just isnt as important.
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A Shorai will hold its charge much better than lead acid. No winter charges, or taking the battery out.
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Well, I've never put mine on a charger, either with the original battery or my current one I got from Murph. I do ride mine year round and (unfortunately here lately) have let sit over a month without riding....starts up every time no problems. Course I don't have any vampire farkles soaking up the juice while it sits, either.
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Shorai batteries have not been out long enough to have any faith at all in that claim, if it is their claim. Theories aside there is not enough experience with these batteries yet to determine their reliability or robustness under varying circumstances such as cold weather use. The batteries have not been around long enough to have collected that info. yet. And the few reports coming in regarding warming the battery by turning on the headlights and then cranking the engine over are not encouraging.
If these batteries prove to be workable for starting vehicles, all fine and well. I just want to stand on the other side of the fence for a few years and allow them to prove their valve and ruggedness.
Brian
A Shorai will hold its charge much better than lead acid. No winter charges, or taking the battery out.
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i dont know much about the new light weight lith-ion batteries for bikes.
I do know my lith-ion cordless tools at work ,work very well and dont seem too affecteted by cold . I use them when temps are in the 20s alot.
Back to regular m/c batteries.
I would put nothing but a Uassa replacement .
Pricey yes ,but I dont mess around when i buy m/c batteries.
The cheap so called replacements will really **** you off when they start giving you trouble in a year or out in the middle of no where on a trip.
Dont pinch pennys on the battery unless you never get far from the house.
Ive learned my lesson.
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I replaced mine with a Shorai. VERY pleased! Great power and MUCH lighter!
My Shorai has appeared to have failed in less than a year with VERY little usage. I will update you guys after they contact me about it.
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<> >< <> Try batterystuff.com <> >< <>
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My Shorai has appeared to have failed in less than a year with VERY little usage. I will update you guys after they contact me about it.
Wow! From "very pleased" in August to "failed" in January. Not sounding good.
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So how often do you all replace your batteries? Do you do it every 3 or 4 years, needed or not, or do you just wait until it leaves you stranded?
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So how often do you all replace your batteries? Do you do it every 3 or 4 years, needed or not, or do you just wait until it leaves you stranded?
OK, I'll be the resident Smart donkey. When it doesn't start easily in the AM. 3+ years, 52,000 miles and the battery finally lost it's charge, but it did sit for 3 months after my back surgery. I did a recondition charge (CTEK 7002, best charger I have ever owned http://smartercharger.com/products/batterychargers/ctek-multi-us-7002/ (http://smartercharger.com/products/batterychargers/ctek-multi-us-7002/) ) and no issues since. If I have been riding regularly and it stutters in the morning I know it's time. From Mikes experience I will not be buying the new tech anytime soon.
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If I am riding locally only, then I wait for the battery to show signs of deterioration which is usually a voltage drop when cranking (more of a voltage drop then usual- all batteries drop from nominal voltage when cranking an engine over). I then start looking around for a battery, casually pick one and put it in the bike. If I were going on a long ride through I might consider replacing a battery just to have the very best odds of <not> having trouble when far from home. Especially so if that distance was some type of long distance / timed run where a failure to start could and probably would ruin the odds of completing the trip in the alloted time. But mostly I just wait for any vehicular battery to either get very weak or fail outright before replacement.
Brian
So how often do you all replace your batteries? Do you do it every 3 or 4 years, needed or not, or do you just wait until it leaves you stranded?
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If I am riding locally only, then I wait for the battery to show signs of deterioration which is usually a voltage drop when cranking (more of a voltage drop then usual- all batteries drop from nominal voltage when cranking an engine over). [...] But mostly I just wait for any vehicular battery to either get very weak or fail outright before replacement.
+1. I usually replace when there are signs of deterioration on the M/C and wait a bit longer on cars. But I never replace a battery just because it is some, certain age. You can usually tell, even without a voltmeter, when a battery is starting to get weak, especially when it starts to get cold outside.
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My Shorai has appeared to have failed in less than a year with VERY little usage. I will update you guys after they contact me about it.
Do a google search for shorai failure. There are many.
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So how often do you all replace your batteries? Do you do it every 3 or 4 years, needed or not, or do you just wait until it leaves you stranded?
I replace m/c battery on the third year .I dont wait for trouble.
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Here is the deal. The Shorai does NOT like to be discharged over storage periods. Kipass on the C-14 and what ever else will drain it. I f you drain it fully, it is toast. Mine discharged over a couple of months in storage on the bike and it died. Shorai replaced it with bigger battery for an additional $40.00. They were very cooperative. I hope that this one works better. A tender WITHOUT a sulfation mode can be used to maintain it. Shorai makes a tender for it. I was an early adopter on this and while I am disappointed in having a problem, Shorai was very good at dealing with it.
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I too have experience with LiPo batteries in RC airplane and RC cars. Early LiPo - especially the no-name brand offshore ones - have spotty reliability. These days, I have been running Traxxas 3S LiPo packs in my EMAXX with great results. The old NiCd and NiMH packs used to get hot after running for some time, these LiPo's stay cool and yield tremendous current draws - while doing some jumps and crash landings that no laptops LiPos dare to dream in their worst nightmares.
I also run a Shorai in my Aprilia RSV1000R, which has a fairly well-known problem of using a somewhat under-sized battery and eating sprag gears when ham-fisted riders kept cranking on the starter on a weak battery. Problem is: the stock location for the battery is only so large, so you could barely upsize the YTX12-BS to YTX14-BS, with a modest increast from 180CCA to 210CCA. I went with a Shorai that is not only smaller and lighter, but puts out 270CCA. Unlike with the stock batt, the big twin now fires up much faster at the touch of the starter button. The insurance against sprag gear failure (which cost at least $500 parts & labor to replace) is worth it in my book. The lightweight are just fringe benefits.
The YTX14-BS is still going strong in my C14, but when it comes time to replace, I'm getting a Shorai LFX21A6-BS12 with 315 CCA. Is 105 CCA (50%) increase and 7 lbs savings worth $150? Well, I just replaced the 19.5 lbs stock muffler with a 7 lbs Area P, with what little power gains I can't even feel. At $315 slightly used, I thought I got a great deal vs. brand new one at $450 +S&H. Somehow I don't think anybody hear will tell me I wasted my money on that one. ;)
Folks are always apprehensive about new technologies. That's why you have idiots like me to do the experimenting and early adoption.
Two roads diverge in a yellow wood... and which road you choose is entirely up to you.
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Battery went belly up last night. No warning. Went home and got the trailer, put the charger on and went out this AM to see a message flashing Bad Bat.
Looked for a listing of available batts on both forums and found this thread. Based on searching several threads I chose the Motobatt http://www.motobatt.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=94&year=08-12&cc=1400&manufacturer_id=39&category_id=63&model_id=88 (http://www.motobatt.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=94&year=08-12&cc=1400&manufacturer_id=39&category_id=63&model_id=88)
82 bucks plus 8 bucks to get it tomorrow. Factory ready to install? That is a plus in my book.
I live in the cold and my bike is in the barn in the winter so I am a bit shy with the LiOn as we get below zero on a regular basis.
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I believe that's the one I have.
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I too have experience with LiPo batteries in RC airplane and RC cars. Early LiPo - especially the no-name brand offshore ones - have spotty reliability. These days, I have been running Traxxas 3S LiPo packs in my EMAXX with great results. The old NiCd and NiMH packs used to get hot after running for some time, these LiPo's stay cool and yield tremendous current draws - while doing some jumps and crash landings that no laptops LiPos dare to dream in their worst nightmares.
I also run a Shorai in my Aprilia RSV1000R, which has a fairly well-known problem of using a somewhat under-sized battery and eating sprag gears when ham-fisted riders kept cranking on the starter on a weak battery. Problem is: the stock location for the battery is only so large, so you could barely upsize the YTX12-BS to YTX14-BS, with a modest increast from 180CCA to 210CCA. I went with a Shorai that is not only smaller and lighter, but puts out 270CCA. Unlike with the stock batt, the big twin now fires up much faster at the touch of the starter button. The insurance against sprag gear failure (which cost at least $500 parts & labor to replace) is worth it in my book. The lightweight are just fringe benefits.
The YTX14-BS is still going strong in my C14, but when it comes time to replace, I'm getting a Shorai LFX21A6-BS12 with 315 CCA. Is 105 CCA (50%) increase and 7 lbs savings worth $150? Well, I just replaced the 19.5 lbs stock muffler with a 7 lbs Area P, with what little power gains I can't even feel. At $315 slightly used, I thought I got a great deal vs. brand new one at $450 +S&H. Somehow I don't think anybody hear will tell me I wasted my money on that one. ;)
Folks are always apprehensive about new technologies. That's why you have idiots like me to do the experimenting and early adoption.
Two roads diverge in a yellow wood... and which road you choose is entirely up to you.
As my batteries fail or I feel better freshening them, they are all being replaced by Shorai. I put a fresh battery in my KTM for a trip recently, had to trust it in some of the most remote areas of the USA. Power and weight, these batteries are a WIN 8)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/10151327_10202249229846788_4242233936741682245_n.jpg)
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I'm going to give the "Battery Tender BTL14A240C Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery" a try. it's $94 on Amazon. Since I'm in Florida and the bike does not sit long, it should be OK. I can't believe it has higher CCA and only weighs 1.8 lbs. I'll post when I get it installed.
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I put the "Battery Tender BTL14A240C Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery" ($94 Amazon)battery in today. 10 pounds lighter and cranked the bike right out of the box. The extra set of terminals helped me clean up some sloppy wiring from previous Mods. The only PIA is making the battery strap fit the much smaller battery. So Far, So Good. 10 lbs off the top. F=MA thats about 1.3 hp ;D.
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Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery update:
It has been 10 months and the battery is well. I even tried to kill it by leaving the trunk on plugged in for weeks sitting in the garage. The battery went "dead" (kpass would not come on) but I only had to charge it for a few seconds once the kpass clicked, and came back to life and started the bike. It still runs and starts fine. I see Battery Tender is making even bigger ones now.
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It has been 10 months and the battery is well.
May I ask you if it cranks the bike at the same speed as the stock battery well charged? I've been skeptical about these batteries, and the fact they require a special charger. But maybe it's time to give them a try, especially now that they came down in price to pretty much the same level as a lead-acid one.
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Thr Cranking Speed is the same (faster than the old half dead one that I took out). The battery volt drops to 11v when cranking which tells that the battery has enough cranking amps.